Kelly Studebaker has been recovering from the challenges of a ruptured AVM from the tender age of 11. In the years that followed she has overcome many of stroke life’s challenges and achieved so much.
02:01 Arteriovenous Malformation
11:35 A snowball effect
16:29 The importance of counseling on stroke recovery
26:01 Never say never
34:45 Deficits and challenges after stroke
39:45 However long it takes
47:59 Emotional issues
You know what? I want to highlight this I want to highlight that it took you five years to get there. And I think that’s an amazing feat because you know, stroke survivors need to know that if you can put something in your mind, it doesn’t matter how long it takes, you can most likely get there, just work towards it every day. Small steps and you’ll get there.
This is recovery after stroke with Bill Gasiamis, helping you go from where you are to where you’d rather be.
Bill for recoveryafterstroke.com This is Episode 106 and my guest today is Kelly Studebaker. Kelly became a stroke survivor at age 11. Due to a ruptured AVM and almost 40 years old now, she has recovered so well that she decided to become a one-armed powerlifter.
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Kelly Studebaker Welcome to the podcast.
Tell me a little bit about what happened to you
Stroke caused by Arteriovenous Malformation
So I was 11 I’m 39 now I had a cerebral hemorrhage, which was an AVM arteriovenous malformation. I hope I’m getting that right. And they rushed me to the hospital and I had my first brain operation, just to stop the bleeding and, you know, for them to get in there to see what was wrong. And then I waited for three weeks because they wanted to see if I would survive.
During that time I had a coma and then that lasted for 10 days and then they titrated me off medication so I could wake up because they didn’t want my brain to swell. And then I pretty much started physical therapy. I don’t know the timeline because I was so out of it drugged up.
And you were young you were only 11 years old. Was there any signs before that, then I imagine you spoken with your parents about it was there any type of sign that might suggest that this little innocent 11-year-old was about to have a bleed in the brain?
So I would get these headaches, which now I know that headaches are pretty, you know, substantial to having a stroke but it was the 80s. So it really you know, if I had a headache, I would just lay down it was probably a migraine just because. I wouldn’t like light.
So where you sound sensitive as well? Or it was just light?
Yeah. Now that I’m looking back on it. I mean, I didn’t have headaches all the time, but when I had them they were pretty intense.
And when you woke up, perhaps can you recall it all what you had to learn how to do again what you had to regain. So you would have been 11 year old until after surgery, what was it that you lost?
I had to learn basically how to do everything over again, because my right side was paralyzed. And that was my dominant side. So I couldn’t talk because of my stroke. So my mom found out that I could write, but I was writing with my left hand, so it was scribbles. Just so she could, you know, communicate with me. They didn’t really know if I would ever be able to speak again. Because the part of my brain where it happened that part of the brain really speech is that part.
And my right hand It’s like, behind my left ear. So I don’t know what section that is. But yeah,
It’s an important section.
Yeah, for sure.
So then at some point, you would have gone back to school. Did you have to? Was that a big struggle? Do you recall what kind of challenges you faced when you went back to school after this experience where now your body was not working the same way that it was prior to the bleed.
So I had when I got shipped down to children’s in Cincinnati, Ohio, which I probably you probably don’t know where that is, but it’s a very good hospital and I had my second operation to fix the brain bleed. Because I knew I was surviving. And then they had physical, occupational and speech therapies and I did that. every day.
I was in the hospital for about three months. And then when I went home from the hospital, my mom and my dad was working at the time. My mom would drive me down there two times a week. Just for physical, occupational and speech therapies.
When I went back to school, like getting on the bus. That was a whole new experience for me because half my body didn’t work. I walked with a cane for a while. I don’t think that I went to school with a cane. I don’t. I’m pretty sure that I didn’t but I was a lot slower because of the stroke, because I can’t run you know, I can’t even now I can’t run.
So like, I had an aide and she would give me like five minutes. The school would give me five minutes. So I could get out of class, I could go to my other class and then, you know, all hell would break loose and all the kids would come out of the classes. And then, you know, it was a really, really big change. But my family and my friends, they protected me. Basically, I wouldn’t be where I am today, without them.
If you’ve had a stroke, and you’re in recovery, you’ll know what a scary and confusing time it can be. You’re likely to have a lot of questions going through your mind. Like, how long will it take to recover? Will I actually recover? What things should I avoid in case I make matters worse, doctors will explain things, but obviously because you’ve never had a stroke before. You probably don’t know what questions to ask.
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In the 80s, when you went through that, was there a lot of support services for a child who had experienced such a traumatic event? Did you have counseling was it therapy was anything to help you?
So I had it in 92 and there was physical, occupational and speech therapies. I didn’t go to a counselor to deal with my head stuff. I have been in two of my counselor to deal with my head stuff, like mental stuff a couple times just because it’s a lot
Do you mean it’s a lot to deal with, or there’s a lot to overcome? What do you mean by that?
A snowball effect
Well, I’ve had an interesting life. Four of my friends have passed away and my dad has passed away and stuff. So after those, you know moments of hell. I didn’t really know where to turn and I would go inward and like, freak out. So that’s when, like, after my dad died and after actually, I had a tragic experience with a boyfriend of mine. And after he died, I had counseling just because I didn’t know how to deal with it. And like anybody, like nobody really knows how to deal with stuff.
Do you find that there’s unresolved things that also then come into play. So, life goes on. Everyone has a traumatic experience with regards to a stroke experience. And then life goes on normal regular life, things happen. Did you find that when those other things happen, then it kind of added to what you’re all already went through in life. And perhaps too much to deal with because you hadn’t really dealt with other issues?
It was like a snowballing effect. Like, I have all this other stuff to deal with because every day that I live is like a recovery day. And nobody really goes over that with you. But every day when I wake up, I realize that half my body is kind of screwed up. So yeah and then adding on, things that I’ve had to go through during my life.
It kind of shocks the system, it kind of like you don’t know what to do with it. didn’t know what to do with it.
By counseling, talking therapy helped? How did you find that helped you?
It was, you know, I went to a grief counselor, and they just talk me through scenarios and stuff like that just because, I went to two years grief counseling when my dad died and two years grief counseling when my boyfriend died.
So it helps talking about it helps and getting another person’s perspective helps. And did you feel better when they kind of make it normal? In that people die, you don’t feel well you don’t know how to deal with it. Did it kind of make it feel better for you that you know that okay other people go through this thing as well. And I don’t have the skills to deal with it. But now that I’ve been to counseling, I have this better understanding about the whole process.
I think that early on when I was rehabbing, like my junior high years, that’s when people’s brains like start developing, and I didn’t really have time to get all that information. I was still at the trauma of my stroke. So I guess I was like, not innocent, but naive and then when stuff happened, like, I’m like, Hey, I didn’t really get I don’t know what to do here. And that pissed me off. Like, I couldn’t really deal with it on my own. I’m a very stubborn person.
The importance of counseling on stroke recovery
You kind of have to be a stroke survivor and continuously go through rehabilitation, every single day all the time constantly on the road to recovery. So that’s a good thing. But if it’s getting in your way, and it’s interfering with your recovery, then then it’s a bit of a challenge. I reason I asked you about your counseling and your therapy and all that kind of stuff is just for people who are listening and watching to get a bit of an understanding of what happens and why we might have void counseling, and then how counseling might help us move on and move forward.
And also the complexity of life. And then, for stroke survivors, there’s a little bit more going on to regular life than regular people who are well, and we’ll call them people who haven’t had a stroke or a serious health issue. There are usually more complicated situations happening when you throw stroke in the mixer into life.
And if people have been avoiding going and speaking to somebody and getting some talk therapy or getting some understanding about what, you know, what their feelings and their emotions are doing, then it’s just gonna sit back there stroke recovery a little. And a lot of the times I hear a lot of stroke survivors say I did a heap of physical therapy. I did that for five years or 10 years and then one day I realized that I never did the emotional therapy that I needed I never healed from all that stuff.
Yeah. Like, sometimes I remember stuff even now. And I’m like, I am so angry about that. And that happened when I was 11. Like, it’s so weird. But I guess everybody has to go through what they have to go through.
And the fact that you have that realization at some point in your life is a great thing. But how silly is it? And I know what happens. So I’m not, I’m not playing it down. But how silly is it? Because I’m the same I’ve done the same thing. How silly is it to be angry about something that happened when you were 11 and now, nearly 40, and you’re still going on about something that happened at 11.
I it’s challenging at times and I’m laughing about it because It hasn’t drove me crazy, but it’s definitely been a challenge.
Yeah, but now that you’re aware of it, is it easy to let go of that thing that happened when you were 11 and move on?
Yes and no. I’m very physical person. like, I’ve done competitive powerlifting for a while, like five years now I’m out of it. Out of the circle. I guess you can call it but like I’ve done a half marathon on a rower just because I thought I couldn’t do it. So I did it anyway. I’ve flipped over tractor tires like I’ve pulled a car and those things make me happy. I am in ballet. I’ve always been in some sort of dance ever since I was little.
So you said that you can’t run or do anything like that, but can you stand and walk?
Yeah I can stand and walk and I do pretty intense workouts because I can.
That’s what I do with regards to walking up a flight of stairs. So if I go to a public building, or a big building somewhere where they’ve got escalators, or an elevator, instead of going in the escalator and the elevator, I make sure that I take the stairs and the only reason I do it is because once Upon a Time I couldn’t.
Now that I can I’m never taking an escalator or elevator if I can avoid it.
So there was somebody in Dayton, Ohio gotten a hold of me some of the firefighters and wanted me to do a 911 stair climb. And that’s like 111 flights of stairs. And I’ve done that. Three years. Last year, I had to take a year off because I had a headache. And, you know, when I have a headache, like, it’s no joke. I’m down for the count.
So do you think that kind of weirdly, experiencing a stroke at 11 kind of put you a little bit in a situation where you’ve got a lot of time to create a good recovery. And therefore, you benefited from having a stroke at 11. Because most AVMs rupture in people’s, like mid 30s to mid 40s.
I think helped me. I was so young and my brain was still developing because your brain doesn’t stop developing until you’re in your 20s. So I had a lot of neural plasticity happening. And then like, my brain was like, Oh, wait a minute. We have to switch gears. And I’m doing so well because I was so young and I know what my body, goes through before like adulthood because as you get older, your knees start to wear out, you know, everything starts to wear out.
So you just have to have you have to stay physically active, especially for stroke survivors just because, you know, once you stop, you lose it all. And that’s just horrible.
Just keep going. I know I agree with you. So you know, your 11 year experience a stroke and you’re starting to recover. did it affect did the stroke affect you growing up in that really critical time when you were a teenager and you’re starting to think about you know, who you liked and dating and all those type of things?
Yes, I didn’t really have a relationship until I mean, I went out with a boy to prom or whatever, but like, I really didn’t have a relationship until college because I was just, you know, trying to get better from my stroke and had homework and, you know, lots of things that just, the relationship wise stuff just kind of fell away. Just because, I was dealing with a lot of stuff.
And then you finish school. Did you go to college? Did you study to do something specific?
Actually I went to school. I thought I wanted to be a pastor, which that all changed. But I went to school and I graduated with my Bachelor of arts degree and communication from Ohio State. And I always wanted to do that. And a lot of doctors said that I couldn’t do that. They didn’t even think that I could finish high school. And I basically I was on a track to prove them wrong.
A lot of my accomplishments have been stuff that people said that I couldn’t do. So I’m like, Well, I’m going to prove to you that I can do it. So you know, watch me fly.
Never say never
You’re one of those people, I love that I was one of the opposite. Somebody told me I couldn’t do something, I believed them. And it took me a while to get over that in my life. You know, I think I was 30 before I started to get over listening to be able to say something is not possible. Now I had my brain hemorrhage at 37.
So I only had just started growing up at 30 when I started not pay attention to people tell me that something’s not possible or you can’t make money working in that field, or you can’t do that or whatever. So I love the fact that that I come across people who do something just to prove somebody else wrong.
Did you have your stroke did it happen on your left side, or does it happen on your right side?
It happened on my right side.
Okay. So your left side is affected.
My left sides affected. So on my left side, I’ve got numbness from the top to the bottom, and pretty much from the middle of my chest over. So I can stand, I can walk, I can run, not a marathon, but I can run. I could probably run a marathon if I wanted to, but I don’t want to.
And I have a couple of balance issues. So when I get tired, I get a little bit more wobbly. Riding a bike was a real issue because my foot would get tired and it would fall off the pedal. And then I would lose my balance. If I put my foot on the ground. I didn’t know where my foot was. So I would fall over those types of things.
But most people who see me wouldn’t know that I’ve had anything wrong. But for me, every day when I wake up my left leg has to kind of wake up as well. And I’ve got to tell it remind it that you’re on the ground you know, make sure you’re paying attention so that I don’t trip over or anything like that. And my left side is really really cold much colder than my right side.
Yes. In the wintertime, it is fierce like I have to wear like super heavy socks. And when I go to sleep at night, like this whole side is like chilly chilly.
Do you ever get in summer you know what I get? I get perspiration on one side of my body but not the other.
Now I don’t have that problem.
So my left side doesn’t get sweaty and my right side does so it takes a bit longer for my left side to feel like it needs to be sweaty. It’s like two different people living in my body simultaneously.
You have two different sides of your body. And if they’re squashed together,
Did somebody challenge you that you couldn’t knit and you thought you decided to start knitting?
Oh, okay my sister actually taught me how to knit on looms about nine years ago. And I’ve done like probably 500 to 600 hats. Like for people just, hey, here’s a hat, here’s a hat you know. And just recently, I have started to do hats with brands. I finally learned how to do that. And then I’m actually working on a scarf. That isn’t a tube it’s just one. It’s really cool. It’s really warm. I like it this winter.
I see you wearing it in your Instagram. I’m going through your photos now and I can see the scarf.
I love to knit. I just love it. It’s like my peacetime.
It’s like your peacetime what does it help you?
Just mellow out and just do something creative.
Yeah. And it’s not something that you have to go and do anywhere. In particular, you don’t have to put a lot of effort in. You just need to get some needles. Sit down with a couple of balls of wool and go for it right?
Now Actually, I have a loom. Oh, circle loom. I do it with because my right-hand doesn’t work. I mean, it’s just my right hand is just around for you know. I don’t know it’s just hanging out when you see me walk, you can actually tell that you know something happened.
So you know how you’re now nearly 40 and you’ve had almost good age. I was gonna ask you have you been surprised over the years when you’ve noticed something come back or start to work? That took a long, long time to come. Have you had any surprises like that? The years where one day you just noticed something was different.
So in what year so, my boyfriend died in 2013. And he told me that I couldn’t flip over a tractor tire a month before he died. And like, I didn’t say anything but like that was just like bumbling in my chest. I’m like, Oh, no, you didn’t. So I went into this gym, and it was a powerlifting gym. And when I went in there, it was just all Viking dudes with long beards and it was bench night and everybody was looking at me weird.
And I’m like, what am I doing in here? I just wanted to flip over tractor tire. And I went in for a boot camp class, and it met like three times a week. And that’s what I told the instructor and little did. I know, she was a physical therapist. So she basically had me flipping tire tractor over in four months from that time, so yeah, and it just kind of built on. There like I’ve gotten much more confidence in myself because I’ve been able to work out with weights and actually know what I’m doing and be confident that I’m not going to hurt myself. Which I have done, but I get back up and I go so it was kind of like our rediscovery of myself.
Yeah, I’m looking at one of the photos and you lift a barbell with two yellow on the side. I don’t know how heavy they are. Wearing a brace and your right arm is not working and your left arm is.
Deficits and challenges after stroke
How do you deal with the trying to get balanced, sort of strength or muscles in both sides of your body when you’re when one of your hands He’s not able to do do the weights like how do you work that?
So I just basically told myself that my right side is going to get stronger without a doubt. But it’s not going to be as well defined as my left side because I’ve been working out my left side, my entire life. You know, there’s lots of times when I’ve carried up my laundry up and down the stairs, you know, so I mean, my right side is, stronger, but not as strong as my left side.
I mean, you can really tell a difference between my calves just because I’ve been walking with this left side being dominant for 28 years, so it’s going to, I’m never going to match. Like, I’m never going to be symmetrical. And I always use when I was growing up, I would always wear jeans, because I didn’t think that people could see my disability through my jeans, which obviously that was not true,
It helped you.
That is interesting to me. I don’t lift any weights or anything like that. But my chiropractor noticed that my left side is a lot less defined than my right side and I don’t have that level of disability all I have is numbness and a preference to avoid using one side because if I try and do barbells and or benchpress on the left side gets a bit shaky, I get panicky and of course, my right side can lift way much more than my left side.
But it kind of always in the back of my mind that I might drop the left side because my hand might just go to sleep in a second you know sometimes and he’s noticed that there’s a massive difference and I don’t really notice that I’m referencing one side over the other. But I can imagine what it’s like for you especially as a powerlifter lifting with one arm like that much weight is a really cool thing do you have to do things slightly differently than the regular abled bodied person because you’re gonna kind of shift your balance somehow, to protect yourself in a different way.
There’s this really cool guy that I got to know, early on in my powerlifting, you know, journey, whatever. And he hurt himself in a motorcycle crash, so his right arm doesn’t work. So he lifts with one arm. And I met him, and we just started talking. And he’s like, well, you can deadlift, and that’s what I’m doing in that picture.
And I’m like, No, I can’t like how and he showed me like the fee like you have to get your feet lined up a certain way because of my disability. And I just, I just started really, really low like, I couldn’t do what I was doing in that picture like that took me like five years to do. And I think I did like 10 reps and 120 I don’t know 121 pounds. But that was when I was, you know, training and stuff. And now with this pandemic going on and stuff, I couldn’t do that.
However long it takes
I would say, you know what, I want to highlight this, I want to highlight that it took you five years to get there. And I think that’s an amazing feat because stroke survivors need to know that if you can put something in your mind. It doesn’t matter how long it takes. You can most likely get there and most likely do that thing, just work towards it every day. Small steps and you’ll get there.
Yeah, like I didn’t really know. I love Tarot. It’s a rowing machine. It’s called the sea to rower. You see him a lot in CrossFit. And I love to row it’s something. It’s not. I don’t get the feeling of running, but it’s more. It’s like a full-body workout.
So, I would just do it with one arm. And, you know, both my feet are up. And one-day last year, I’m like well, why not do it with both my arms and I basically tie my right hand down to the handle, and I can pull back I can row a couple of strokes. But it’s gonna take me a while. But I learned that.
So tying it are you putting your hand? Are you kind of wrapping it around the bar and tying it?
Yeah, I wrap it around the bar and then I tie it on with the bench strap because that’s what I had in my bag at the time yeah, so it’s really interesting you can do stuff, it just takes a while.
You got to be a little bit more creative as to how you go about doing it. I often am fascinated seeing those in Australia, we’ve got the world champion wheelchair tennis player. And I don’t know what happened to the dude. But all I know is I don’t know if he would have been a world champion at anything if he didn’t have the disability that he has. So he kind of just he seems to me to be a normal guy, but the fact that he’s got this disability is pushing him further and further than he’s ever been pushed.
So he’s in a wheelchair and it doesn’t look he might be paralyzed. from the waist down. It appears because he’s pretty handy. above the waist, you know, he’s fit, he’s got good arms, he pushes away around his wheelchair around this tennis court like nothing else is the best in the world.
I see people who are the best in the world in the Paralympics or in other sports. And sometimes I would love to interview them just to wonder to find out like, if you didn’t have this disability, do you reckon you would have been that much that motivated and I suppose that’s a good question for you, you know, do you think that you would have been that motivated?
Now, probably not. I mean, I probably would have family with kids and stuff. I’ve never been married, you know. And that’s, I don’t know. That’s just not the way that my life went, so I have other hobbies that I can explore, I guess.
Awesome. And they got hobbies. Let me ask you a question about powerlifting and eating when you’re training tell me about how much food you have to hit.
I didn’t really pick up my eating or whatever, but like, there was people around me that like, you know, they would eat six times a day and stuff like that and I’m like holy mackerel, you know, I eat three times a day, I was eating like, you know, two eggs in the morning and then like, just hearty stuff, you know, but I didn’t really go into it.
I really didn’t go into it thinking like, Oh, I have to eat this and I have to do this. You know, I just kind of It was just like a trial and error. Like sometimes I would get so sore and have to take some time off like a couple days when I wouldn’t go to the gym just because I would overdo it. I mean, I slept a lot, because my body was just going through changes and wrecked basically.
Because when I was competing like they would take you through like these 12 or 14-week training cycles and the instructions like do this many reps of this and whatever. Like it was for a normal person, and I’m not a normal person. I’m not a normal person at all. So, when I would do these workouts, and I would do them with the best of my ability, when I would come home, I would just crash just because I was so tired. I mean, it’s something that I like to do.
Yeah. Do you ever or did you still experience neurological fatigue? Is that something that was part of your life after the stroke?
Like brain fog or when I get brain fog, it’s normally because emotional stuff is happening to me. I’m when I’m training. I’m not training right now. But when I’m training like it seems I don’t have brain fog when I’m training. But I’m more physically tired. I don’t know. it’s just something to do.
I’m just curious about like how your body reacts to doing that much to putting into that much effort. A lot of stroke survivors talk about neurological fatigue and brain fog. And but I love what you said, which is slightly different to what most other people say. And I imagine there’s a lot of people who experience what you just said, which was neurological brain fog, after an emotional, a big emotional experience. Like that’s really interesting. Most people don’t say that.
Post-stroke emotional issues
I’ve been through a lot, enough stuff that when I’m challenging myself physically, I feel like it’s mind over matter. Like I can do stuff physically. But emotionally I’m weaker because maybe because I haven’t had that much training in it. I know probably.
100% You nailed it that’s exactly what people don’t do. They don’t do enough training to deal with emotional issues because it’s a bit scary, you know, and it makes sense. But the thing about when you deal with emotional issues, and you train yourself to go there, if it’s hard, is once it once you’ve gone to the hard part. It’s better afterwards. It’s always better out It’s no different than going to the gym and waking up and being Oh my God, I gotta go to the gym, I gotta go to the gym. And then you make yourself go and then after you’ve been you go, I’m so glad I went. That was amazing, you know?
Dealing with emotional issues is very similar at least that’s what I’ve found. And, and I know they can be traumatic but to release the trauma. It’s the same as climbing up those stairs, you know, those hundred flights of stairs. There’s only one way to do it. You got to push through the pain threshold to get to the other side. And once you push through, then it becomes nothing.
It’s like nah what do you mean? 100 flights of stairs, I’ve done that. It means nothing. You know, it’s not a problem for me. And that’s what it’s like dealing with emotional challenges. And I’ll give you this analogy. Say that it was essential that every year you had to climb 100 flights of stairs. And if you didn’t climb it the next year, you had to do 200. And if you didn’t do those, they were waiting for you the next year, and you had to do 300.
Yeah, I would just do 100 every year.
Yeah. Right. Because by the time you get to year three, if you’ve got to do 300 flights of stairs, it is such a dramatic issue. It’s such a problem, that it’s really difficult to get to that, right. However, if you chip away at those 100 at a time, then you can still say you’ve done 300 flights of stairs in three years. And that’s a better way to do them.
And that’s what emotional trauma is like every time you get traumatized. And you don’t deal with it. It’s waiting there for you next time. The next one happen and the next one and they’re all waiting for that ain’t go away until you deal with all of them. And then when we get a midlife our 40s and before we have our midlife crisis, there’s so many of them because we haven’t had the training to deal with it.
I’ve been through a lot of midlife crisises.
Every couple of years is that how often you do your midlife crisis?
Yeah, I think so.
You’re no different from the other human being on the planet we’re on this planet, and sometimes things happen to us that we don’t choose. So we’ve just got to become a little braver in tackling them, like you tackle your deadlift.
I haven’t deadlifted in like six months maybe.
Are you looking forward to getting back to it?
Right now I’m doing this program. His name is Derek. He’s a military guy. And he’s retired because he has a prosthetic? And he’s a big like CrossFit dude. So I’ve been working out like a home workout. And man. It’s intense. Like I couldn’t like my kneecaps were sweating today. Like, my kneecaps were sweating.
I couldn’t even finish the workout. I felt like such a wimp. But whenever it happens.
Tell me a little bit about the thinking behind your Instagram tag this crip life. What’s behind that?
So in America, we have this TV show that was on my so-called life, and I really like that in the 90s. And when I was thinking of a name like it just appeared in my head, I’m like this crip life yeah, I guess it’s like a slogan for people to you know, log on to my page or whatever. And it’s kind of like a play on words like, you know, I’m crippled, you know, but I’m doing cool shit, you know?
You definitely are. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and making a massive effort to be on here because the first time we tried to get together and it didn’t work, and it seems like you’re in a way better location today. I really appreciate getting to know you a little bit and understanding a little bit about what’s behind the person who I’ve got to follow on Instagram keep doing what you’re doing and I’m really looking forward to getting to know a little bit more about you and seeing more of what happens in the years to come.
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