Consume less dairy after stroke and support healing.
5 Reasons to Quit Dairy After Stroke is Part 4 in a series of 5 interviews recorded with Stacey and Matty Turner from www.TheChiefLife.com
Stacey is a qualified Nutritionist and Matty is a Personal Trainer. Together we discuss how decreasing dairy consumption can support healing for all people whether they are recovering from stroke or not.
To find out more about RecoveryAfterStroke coaching go here
Find out more about the chief life team below.
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/
- The Symptoms That Dairy Causes
- What Lactose Does
- The Calcium Myth
- Acidity And Inflammation
- Alternatives To Dairy Milk
- Milk Then And Milk Now
- Milk And Your Neurons
Transcript:
Matt 00:00
If your body has an issue with dairy or the protein in dairy so you get inflammation from this product and it breaks through into the gut barrier I’d break past the gut barrier and starts to get into your blood, what happens is now this is seen, this protein is now seen as a bad thing in your body.
Stacey 00:20
It’s a threat.
Matt 00:20
It’s a threat so what your body sees is protein from milk and protein from your myelin sheath being very similar so what it does is it attacks both.
Intro 00:29
This is recovery after stroke with Bill Gasiamis. Helping you go from where you are to where you’d rather be.
Bill 00:40
From recoveryafterstroke.com here, this is episode 67 part 4 of the fun five series and today we’re talking dairy, with personal trainer matty turner nutritionist Stacey Truner.
Bill 00:54
Matthias Turner good day!
Matt00:55
Yo!
Bill 00:55
Welcome!
Matt 00:57
Thank you for having me, should you welcome in your crew but welcome.
Bill 01:00
Welcome, everybody.
Matt 01:02
Exactly.
Bill 01:05
Stacey turner how are you?
Stacey 01:07
I’m good, how are you?
Bill 01:08
I’m very good I’ve… as per always matty I hope you don’t mind I’ve been following Stacey’s status post on Instagram, the photos have been amazing of late.
Matt 01:20
Yeah, definitely good content coming out there.
Stacey 01:20
Awe thank you.
Bill 01:21
You guys took out took one of those photos that were a little bit intimate, a little bit you know, you kind of uhh like looking up at your goddess with her baby bump this such cool photos its so good to see that you guys are documenting this stage of the development of the baby bump and a little pickle.
Matt 01:46
Hmm, exactly.
Stacey 01:46
Absolutely yeah very special time I wanted to be a mom I used to say since I was 10 my little brother was born but I think it’s actually since my little sister was born which was like when I was 2 years old I was like her little mini mom and I used to follow her around and dote on her and so I finally get to do it with my own bob now that’s so its pretty exciting time for us.
Bill 02:05
Wow! that’s good so like I don’t understand that whole I wanted to be I didn’t want to be a dad but I’m glad I’m a dad but at the time i wasn’t thinking that I suppose that’s an interesting way to lead into the beginning of this next episode and the reason being is because we’re talking about dairy
And were going to talk about combining what we know about the what big corporations tell us about dairy and how that’s intimately linked to babies and babies growth and all that kind of stuff. so I imagine that you’ve been on a bit of a journey from early on to kind of work out even though you might not have noticed to work out like how are you going to be a really good mum.
Stacey 02:53
mm-hmm.
Bill 02:53
And now you’ll hear, how old are you now?
Stacey 02:57
So I’m 33 now.
Bill 02:59
33?
Stacey 03:00
Yup.
Bill 03:00
So now at 33, you get to be a mom, you get to experience what you’ve dreamed of but you’re going to start taking into consideration some of those things you learned about what’s good for bub and we’ve talked about we’ve already spoken about some of those things you know decreasing the amount of sugar caffeine for you, gluten all that kind stuff creating a healthy body a healthy mind but milk is one of those things that;s considered to be a really good for bub and mum, healthy bones all that kind of stuff so today obviously we’re going to talk about dairy, let’s get stuck into it and let me find out what are some of the signs and symptoms that you’re not tolerating dairy well.
Stacey 03:43
Yeah absolutely do you want to jump in there?
Matt 03:44
Yeah definitely I mean there’s there’s pretty uhh similar signs and symptoms that we’d see from things like dairy oh sorry from things like gluten and dairy they’re very very similar in types and what we’ll find sometimes is that people will remove them both and reintroduce them both at the same time and then they have like a whirlwind of effects or they introduce one and it lags over into when they reintroduced the other one and they’re like well I think it was just that the one was attacking me but typically it’s actually both so.
Bill 04:16
If you or someone you know has experienced a stroke and are in recovery you’ll know what a scary and confusing time it can be you’re likely to have a lot of questions going through your mind like how long will it take to recover, will I actually recover, what things should i avoid in case I make matters worse, doctors will explain these things to you but obviously because you ‘ve never had a stroke before you may not know what question to ask if this is you you may be missing out on doing the things that could help speed up your recovery
if you’re finding yourself in that situation? stop worrying and head to recoveryafterstroke.com where you can download a guide that will help you. it’s called 7 questions to ask your doctor about your stroke these are the 7 questions that I wished I had asked when I was recovering from my stroke. they’ll not only help you better understand your condition, they’ll help you take a more active role in your recovery. head to the website now recoveryafterstroke.com and download the guide. It’s free.
Also just before we get stuck into it, I wanted to let you know about something that I’ve been working on that I finally completed. it’s a free webinar that people can download directly from recoveryafterstroke.com/webinar
In the free webinar you’ll learn how to take action on your recovery now, how to build a vision of the future that will inspire you and what to do when you are faced with hard decisions about your path forward, you’ll also learn the importance of creating a supportive team around you and what kind of people that may involve as well as how stroke recovery coaching can help speed up your healing.
Everything I do at recoveryafterstroke.com is about creating a place where information can come to share it out to people who have either experienced a stroke or caring for somebody that’s experienced a stroke so that they can go about making their recovery journey a much easier one than when I was making my own recovery journey which started seven years ago there was
a lot less information out there about how to get back on your feet after stroke so it was my job I felt to create a place where people could do that and have a better version of a recovery than I had and hopefully I can support people do that with this webinar so don’t just be a stroke survivor, go to recoveryafterstroke.com/webinar and download this free webinar and become a stroke survivor.
Matt 06:58
Things are like very very common to dairy is things like a blocked nose, snoring is a big one actually like people who don’t usually and then all of a sudden they have dairy in that night they start snoring they wake up with a really dry mouth, that is very typical and common of dairy.
Stacey 07:17
We’re not saying that’s the only reason why somebody would snore.
Matt 07:19
No, definitely not.
Stacey 07:19
But it’s pretty clear.
Matt 07:21
Indicator if you’ve had had dairy like you go out and have ice cream on Saturday night and you start snoring that night and every other night of the week you haven’t snored, that’s probably pretty typical of dairy once again goes back to things like skin issues, like psoriasis pimples even asthma these things can all be brought up because of the dairy intake
even things down to bloating when it comes to intestinal stuff like we can talk about constipation or the complete opposite diarrhea are both very typical things that happen to people who have dairy and when it comes to dairy I think people kind of think of dairy as being just cows’ milk whereas the big issue actually comes from goat’s milk and from sheep’s milk if you don’t respond well to lactose.
Bill 08:06
Okay that’s what I was gonna ask what is it that bothers us about dairy oh I hear about proteins and dairy, dairy is the topic I know there least about so is there proteins, is there sugars, is it what’s going on with dairy, what’s the issue?
Stacey 08:18
Yes, it is we’ve got protein and carbohydrate and fat in milk so when a lot of people talk about being so good for us in terms of macronutrients in terms of the density of getting all three of your macronutrients it’s a pretty heat like balanced food.
Matt 08:32
pretty rounded
Stacey 08:35
But the unfortunate thing is that people are getting irritation from the carbohydrate in the milk which is known as lactose, the sugar found in milk or or and it could be both or one or the other they might be getting affected by the proteins and there’s two different proteins in cows milk, there’s casein and there’s whey and some people can have intolerance to all three of those things, lactose casein and whey and it will maybe come up in different ways within the body so it could be gut stuff, it could be skin stuff, it could be blood stuff
Matt 09:08
It could be brain stuff and that’s something that we’ll dive in to.
Stacey 09:08
It could be brain stuff, absolutely so there four immune systems that are trying to support you and as matty said often when people get rid of the gluten and the dairy they find that you know the symptoms go away but then I think it was just the gluten and for some people maybe that is the case you know
that everybody is intolerant to wheat we know like that’s a scientifically proven fact. dr.Tom O’Brien some thirty years of research on all of that stuff whereas with dairy maybe it is more of a not everybody is going to suffer from it but what we’re seeing with the majority of our clients is that people thrive when they swap it out.
Matt 09:44
did have it there
Stacey 09:45
And it’s you know it’s maybe not so much to do with the actual like its not the milk’s fault, it’s just the way that it’s been processed and industrialized more so.
Bill 09:56
Okay what’s casein and whey what are those two things?
Stacey 09:59
So they’re branched-chain amino acids within the milk so it’s like you know when you eat meat, you get protein from that you get the amino acids the little building blocks of the protein so casein and whey are just two different types they’re varying in length so one is slightly different length to the other and so that’s why they’ve been given different names casein is
actually very similar in its molecular structure to gluten so often it can be because it’s doing very similar things to what gluten does to the body that we’ve spoken about in the gluten episode casein is starting to cause a lot of that autoimmune dysfunction in the body where the body sees it and starts to attack it and then gets confused between whats casein and what’s the body protein and then it starts to attack the body so mimics gluten quite a lot.
Matt 10:50
They actually sell both of these products as protein powders so, for instance, you might see WPI or WPC so whey protein isolate or whey protein concentrate
Stacey 11:00
They’re both the whey ones.
Matt 11:01
They’re both the whey ones and then so they sell them a lot just when you’re buying protein powder unless you’re purposely going out and getting something like a pea protein or a rice protein or a hemp protein typically they’re going to be selling you something that’s a WPI which is a whey based protein so straight off the bat people can say hey I’ve got rid of dairy but I’m keeping this protein shake in not realizing that it has the dairy factors of it
and it can affect you yet exactly the next one is casein actually sold casein as a slow-release protein so this is one that people typically are recommended to have before bed time as like a slow-release protein to help you recover over the night like they said because it’s kind of like a gluten substance its a slower moving substance it’s like a glue-like substance in the body so hence why it’s slow slow release but it’s not the best thing to be having based on once you’ve done some tests to see if it actually is beneficial for you or not.
Bill 11:56
All right while talking about that matty lets talk about swapping that out when we go into the gym because I know that you know when I was 19 and decided that I was gonna be you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger I went and smashed you know increased my food intake by tons and then smashed the protein shakes down so if somebody is thinking about starting at the gym or they’re currently at the gym what are they going to swap that protein powder out with?
Matt 12:21
Yeah definitely so when it comes to like a WUI or a WC so yeah idealy what we want to do is swap it for just a non inflamatory based option so something like a pea protein a rice protein a hemp protein you can even just swap it out for a real food realistically like you could just go and swap it for more tuna or more eggs or more meat like these are just protein based options and there’s no difference between getting protein food compared to a protein milk apart from the fact that its not going to be inflammatory to the body
so you’re better off actually eating your food the ideal the idea is that when you have something that you drink that it’s already kind of processed down so your body gets to eat it faster and gets to utilize it faster no there’s actually been a lot of studies around that around like your post post eating window that you have to get your food in after 15 minutes of training like make sure you get that food in after 45 minutes other wise you’re gonna lose what you gained and theres a lot of studies to say that that’s actually false negative like it’s not actually a thing.
Stacey 13:21
Well one of the reason that could be is because your body is in its sympathetic nervous system its in its fight or flight response from training you haven’t given your body a chance to get out of its emergency room system back into the parasympathetic rest and digest so your body is probably not ready to receive that food unless you’ve taken those 15 minutes to do some yoga
Matt 13:41
to chill
Stacey 13:43
and some deep breathing before you try and have that nutrition anyway.
Matt 13:47
just piss out all the protein
Bill 13:49
Wow that’s really cool that’s really interesting so I didn’t realize that the body can be in a not in an optimum space to actually receive off that’s amazing.
Matt 14:00
yeah definitely
Stacey 14:01
And one protein that Mattie didn’t mention that he actually loves is collagen protein.
Matt 14:07
Oh yeah, of course.
Stacey 14:06
Because that’s a non-dairy base but also non-plant-based so you’re getting really high-quality amino acids that are still from an animal without being dairy-based so that that’s actually preference it’s really good for your skin as well.
Matt 14:22
and your joints
Bill 14:22
I love collagen.
Matt 14:24
Yeah collagen is incredible.
Stacey 14:26
and good for your brain
Bill 14:28
Great for your connective tissue great for your blood vessels great for your eyes great for your skin great hair like it’s the one thing that actually the body need the most of and you can get collagen in a powder for people who have heard about bone broth and all that type of stuff and if you can get good grass grass-fed bones from animal that are grass-fed then you can boil
them down and what comes out is the beautiful nutrients but also some of that collagen right and you can put that in soups or you can drink it as a drink, I love putting a little bit of you know salt pepper some a little bit of other spices and then some turmeric and some lemon juice and just drinking it as a warm drink, its really beautiful
Stacey 15:11
And that’s great for people that loves savory what we found with some people who prefer to do more of the sweet thing but still want to get the collagen in is there’s a couple of brands that we have explored and discovered that can give you collagen in a really good-quality format um the ones called La Cako and they do like a powder that you can just mix with water and I have it like a hot chocolate like I say for me during pregnancy as well so I’m getting collagen which for baby its good for my skin, its good for everything.
Matt 15:43
La Cako is L A C A K O.
Stacey 15:48
And then the other one.. oh sorry.
Bill 15:50
I was just gonna say I’ll put the links in yeah that’s fine.
Stacey 15:52
Oh, awesome well the other one is temple nutrition they’ve got a bunch of different collagen options that Mattie’s been testing out.
Matt 15:56
Yeah they’re incredible, I’ve just brought out this whole new line and so they mix it with MCT oils from coconut and then they also have the collagen so you’re getting the best of both worlds but it’s a really really tasteful product so they’ve got a few different options I’ve just tried out the salted caramel the mixed berries and the chocolate and I couldn’t fault any of them they’re all delicious.
Stacey 16:16
And they’re all naturally sweetened so even though they sound like really naughty for you, they’re actually quite helpful and we’re really excited because it means that if people aren’t feeling like a savory option it’s a really good way for them to get something especially like recovery from stroke you know you’re not gonna maybe feel up to I mean you can speak more to this but you’re not gonna maybe feel up to preparing bone broth and all that sort of stuff whereas if you can just get a powder, add some water or some milk alternatives to it and drink it down it’s a lot easier.
Bill 16:47
You know what’s interesting when I was a kid 45 years ago I remember that you know bone broth was the beginning of every meal almost and it didn’t necessarily come from mum made a batch of bone broth but whatever she cooked that had bones in it if the juice came out of the stock came out whatever you want to call it that was put to the side and that was used then to create the base of every meal after that or a couple of meals after that
and I didn’t know that that’s what she was doing and I’ve only realized now when I’ve discovered bone broth that I, in fact, mum has been doing that for years and in the 25 years that I’ve bee with my partner and married and had kids, we weren’t doing that, we didn’t realize so now we’re sort of started to become aware of how to make a really nutritious meal that begins with something that most people would consider which is the bones of the previous meal
Matt 17:47
Yeah I think we used to be a lot more resourceful than what we are now because there’s so much of our convenience so it’s like oh what’s the point in putting in the extra effort for the bone broth when I can just go buy a jar of concentrated bone broth instead
Stacey 17:59
But i also think that what bill was saying you know maybe it was a cultural thing and it was intrinsic that she was just doing what her mother did and didn’t maybe realize the nutritional benefits because it was for flavor and it was saving money but now we’re seeing how important it is just from that perspective and its caught and come full circle, yeah reflect on what your mum was doing was so good and now you can bring it back in.
Bill18:25
Yeah it’s amazing it’s gonna uhm, generations of knowledge that they just used to do without really having researched that and studied it and read it or heard it on a podcast but it’s great that we can refer back to those old recipes or old ways and for me its not that long ago, its only like half a generation ago so it’s not that far back, but for my mum, its multiple generations ago that they passed that down so it’s really cool so awesome, collagen and pea protein really good way to replace protein that we get in a bag to go to the gym
Matt and Stacey 18:59
Yup!
Bill 19:02
Milk is a really good way to get calcium, calcium makes the bones strong doesn’t it?
Stacey 19:09
meh
Matt 19:12
about that
Bill 19:16
Let’s talk about that.
Stacey 19:16
I wonder who’s funded those research projects…well I guess before we delve a little bit deeper into that I want to definitely go into that in a bit more depth but you know we are sold there as the milk is healthy it’s gonna make your bones really strong, it’s so good for you you’ve got to get your you know, what is it? three serves of calcium in a day or three subs of dairy in a day to get your calcium
mat 19:40
Something like that.
Stacey 19:41
There’s a lot of controversy about this because a lot of people are now saying well actually milk isn’t good for you and here’s the ABCD of why and a couple of those reasons are it’s inflammatory to the body which is something we have spoken about in this whole fun five series because these foods are the inflammatory five
all foods and drinks but it also can affect the PH of the body as well so there’s a lot of other stuff going on that maybe people haven’t realized in how milk can affect the body and why it’s not actually good for us so then when you’re talking about calcium it’s like okay well it does give you some calcium but funnily enough it can actually cause your increase of the needs of calcium.
Matt 20:31
Yeah your requirement goes up.
Stacey 20:32
So it’s like a bit of a catch-22 situation where the more dairy you have the more calcium you need and so I guess that works really well for the dairy industry.
Matt 20:49
It’s kind of crazy because they obviously did some test at one point that said okay well dairy itself has a lot of calcium in it so therefore if we drink dairy it should be really good for us, what they didn’t do is the tests within the person to say okay when were drinking dairy as an individual how is it responding withing the body and it’s not until later they’ve kind of found out well maybe it’s not as beneficial as what we initially thought it might be due to the requirement of extra calcium being needed so I mean the more you dring dairy the more your requirement of calcium goes up.
Stacey 21:23
So you swap out dairy for non-dairy alternatives you calcium requirement actually decreases and you can get a lot of these calcium requirements from other foods.
Matt 21:33
A really good anecdote proof of that is Stacey because she is a celiac, she’s someone who should have really weak bones in general but because she has swapped out the dairy so typically celiacs have issues with dairy and gluten because she swapped both of these foods out her bones are actually really strong and she gets all-natural forms of calcium just from the food that she’s eating and she now has incredibly strong bone density and this gets seen every time she goes back and does a DEXA scan and they say okay your bone rating is actually above average like you’re sitting really well with your bone density
Bill 22:06
And also going to the gym supports strengthening bones and creating better bone density and I know sugar interferes with the uptake of calcium from other foods so if you’re consuming sugar, it’s actually interfering with being able to take calcium to where the body needs it and you can stop consuming sugar then your uptake of calcium is better.
Stacey 22:29
absolutely
Bill 22:31
Then we talked about calcium and there was even people talking about that baby formulas are better than breast milk, we’ve even heard that before and made women swap it out and then there’s been the other alternative which is that put pressure on it puts pressure on women who can’t breastfeed they get really emotional and upset about that so let’s talk about the other one which is apparently baby formula beating then mums milk and then let’s also give some kind of support to the ladies who can’t breastfeed and what can they do instead?
Stacey 23:15
Yeah absolutely so um breast is best, breast is definitely best even if the mother isn’t able to eat as nutritious a diet as she would like, the body is so smart, the female body is amazing and it can literally convert what’s needed from the stores of the mother to create the nutritious milk that’s needed for the baby and actually this is something that I’ve been aware of since I was a teenager when I was at highschool some of my friends were big into boycotting nestle I don’t know, I grew up in the UK so I don’t know if this made it over here but there was some programs that were going on some developing countries where
Nestle had gone over and given out formula to new mothers in developing countries and telling them oh you’re not gonna have enough breast milk here use our formula then they would disappear and not give them this free formula anymore but the mother is no longer creating breast milk and so needs formula has to now try and pay for it, use this dirty water to make it and as you can see like
this is not a favorable outcome for mother or baby now the reason this became so profound was because one lady that they negotiated with I guess had twins and they told her you’ll only be able to breastfeed one of your babies and so she breastfed one and she formula fed the other with the dirty water and hta half about because she coudln’t afford to do the full scoop it each time and you could clearly see the difference from one baby to the other obviously
the breasfed baby was healthy as and absolutely thrived, I’m remembering more parts of this story that almost don’t want to say cos it’s gonna make me cry but the non breastfed baby was not very well and the photo that i saw was of this you know the mother with the healthy baby and the not healthy baby and then I dont know if this is true but somebody then told mea few days after the photo was taken the fromula for baby passed away so you’re gonna have to take over now its just disgusting.
Matt 25:15
I think the biggest thing to take away from that is the fact that the body is incredibly smart and that it is going to produce the best form for you now if it comes to the state where the mum can not produce milk there is definitely smarter alternatives that they can be taking so it doesn’t have to be hey come and use this soy-based or milk-based formula because yeah powder that’s going to be the best thing because we know that this can create inflammation within the body with both the soy variation and the milk variation so there definitely are options I mean the thing is and I did talk about this before but sheep and goats milk are a better alternative
Stacey 25:55
if casein is the issue
Matt 25:56
If casein is the issue okay there’s also some pretty profound ones coming out now things like camel milk which Pete Evans if anyone knows that him he got absolutely ridiculed for this because people like what are you gonna do, go on milk 100 camels? and it was more so about the I guess that there’s not camel milk in abundance but realistically it’s actually a really good form for kids to be having.
Stacey 26:20
We’ve actually tried it in the states and it was lovely
Matt 26:21
It was delicious but I mean its not that far Australia really it’s just the fact that we don’t have that many camels here in Australia that are easily milked.
Stacey 26:28
But backtracking a little because sorry i got a bit sidetracked with my story um we’re backtracking a little from that is maybe you know don’t give up so soon with the breastfeeding but yes its if you’re not able to do it then we totally understand and we support that process but sometimes it can be as simple as reaching out if you’re in Australia to the ABA the Australian breastfeeding association they’ve got lactation consultants that like if you sign up
Matt 26:53
24/7
Stacey 26:53
for a membership with them which is like a hundred bucks or something, you get a year’s membership and you can call them anytime so if I do have issues at 3:00 am in the morning matty can call them up and ask for that support then and there something else that we’re doing next weekend is attending a half-day workshop to get educated on you know the breast crawl so once you’ve had your baby allowing the baby to crawl up your abdomen and find the breast itself that then allows for the latching to occur more effectively so there’s so many little tricks and tools that I think mums, unfortunately
all parents, in general, aren’t educated on to allow breastfeeding to happen more naturally and if those little steps get missed, that can be the reason so it’s not that mums not got the supply or that baby’s not able to latch, it’s that maybe mum and baby didn’t get skin on skin contact as soon as the baby was born and that’s imperative for allowing that bonding to occur so that the innate desire for the baby to seek milk from mother actually happens
Matt 27:55
My sister actually had a lot of issues with breastfeeding her daughter.
Stacey 27:59
She had a cesarean.
Matt 27:59
Her cesarean then ad issues with Neve actually attaching and then also the other side of that was she had a lot of dietary requirements like she was quite the what people would call a problem child but realistically is that her needs were not being met with the foods that she was getting so they ended up going with coconut powder formula because that was the only thing that her daughter could actually work off of and she absolutely thrived as soon as they found this alternative
It just took a while to get there and when they finally did, it was a bit more expensive a route but they didn’t have to deal with the reflux, they didn’t have to deal with the vomiting after every single feed and the daughter actually started sleeping properly like it went from absolute nightmare to a change around just because the food change so I think there’s definitely alternatives out there its just about looking and searching to find what’s going to be the best option for you.
Stacey 28:51
Yeah absolutely and another thing could be even positional so even just the way you know you’re holding your baby in a certain way it might not be comfortable and it might be causing like a refluxy thing to occur yet if you hold your baby in a slightly different position then those problems can be solved so there’s just a lot of, its’ a lot of stuff that could be happening, somebody that I’ve been listening to a lot recently is Sarah Buckley
and she talks a lot about the hormone cascades that happen around pregnancy, around birth and then into the fourth trimester the first three months after birth and so yeah a lot of that stuff is super important in the lead-up to the birth, what happens at the birth, if you do have to have a cesarean or if something else happens that isn’t the original preference, there are ways to overcome and help with that bonding process as well.
Bill 29:40
Yeah so basically you know what I love about this conversation is if you weren’t pregnant Stacey we wouldn’t have gone down this path and I think it’s a really important thing that we’re doing so thank pickle for me for being around.
Stacey 29:51
Well-done pickle.
Bill 29:55
Such an amazing extra bit of information because it’s so important, dairy is this thing that we blokes especially will gloss over and we’ll just talk about it because you know, we never needed to supply our babies with milk or anything like that so it’s good that we can have this insight now as continue the conversation also dairy is supporting bones and people who have osteoporosis so we use dairy because it’s got calcium to strengthen the bones when they have osteoporosis tell me about that.
Matt 30:29
So I think one thing that is really worthwhile pointing out is the fact that we talked about the acidity levels of dairy before.
Stacey 30:37
I didn’t quite referred the acidity but it does affect ph so yeah.
Matt 30:41
It affects the ph levels which means that it’s acidic which is not the ideal state and when we’ve got too much acidity in the body that’s when we start seeing the inflammation come on high amounts of inflammation typically lead to things like joint pain in particular if you’ve got arthritis then you’re gonna like have more issues with it when you’ve got higher amounts of
inflammation within your body so when we have that and even if we’ve got something like osteoporosis and we have extra milk, it’s automatically giving us another fault to have to look after so we’ve got osteoporosis is one issue but all of a sudden we have to now deal with inflammation even if it’s getting a little bit of calcium form that we now have to deal with the inflammation from the dairy as well as the osteoporosis and if anything the second trigger is making the first trigger worse
Stacey 31:27
Yeah and I mean the body doesn’t like to be in an acidic state so it’s going to do what it can to get back to neutral or slightly alkaline even, the body likes to be at around seven point fourish an acidity sends us the other side of seven down to the low numbers whereas we want to get it back the other way so the body’s way of solving that problem is to use alkaline minerals to help pull the ph back to where it should be so that’s things like calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus which guess where they’re stored in the bones so when you have acidic foods like dairy
Bill 32:04
bodies
Stacey 32:06
Yeah if you have an acidic body and then you’re bloating dairy into that, your body is using the stored minerals the alkaline I guess components but it’s pulling it from your bones in order to bring you back to equilibrium which is not good because then it’s actually weakening your bones.
Bill 32:26
So it kind of supports osteoporosis, that’s a bit rough, kind of..sort of I know what you’re saying.
Stacey 32:35
there’s some articles that show that the countries that have the highest levels of dairy in their diet actually have the highest levels of osteoporosis.
Bill 32:48
Yeah, wow!
Stacey 32:50
So I can see.
Matt 32:53
A little bit of resourcing.
Stacey 32:53
Send you the link to that paper if it’s been listed in this article but I think like that’s pretty profound you know, like we’re told that dairy will help you with osteoporosis but actually no it’s pulling the minerals that are meant to strengthen your bones away to put them into your body rather to keep your PH right rather than supporting your bone density.
Bill 33:13
I love that I now know what osteoporosis is because we hear about it it’s the brittle bones and all that kind of stuff but you don’t know, we don’t understand why it is and that’s great that we now why it is and how we can avoid it or support reversing the impact of osteoporosis so it’s really easy right. remove dairy so alright so if we’re going to remove dairy and I’ll get to some other points in a little bit but while it comes to my mind if we’re gonna get rid of dairy, where are we gonna get calcium from, where does it come from other then well dairy.
Matt 33:51
There’s definitely a lot of really rich calcium foods that we can eat and when you actually put some of these like if you were to use a liter of milk compared to like a kilogram of these foods typically you’re actually gonna get more calcium from these foods in particular in the uptake of the actual food.
Stacey 34:05
the bioavailability
Matt 34:06
Yeah the bioavailability when you’re absorbing them so almonds are probably the first pick, if you have any almonds regular within your diet they’re a really good source of calcium.
Bill 34:17
Okay.
Stacey 34:18
And then there’s some of your greens so things like kale I mean collard greens.
Matt 34:25
Its kind of like a silverbeet style thing, broccoli, spinach is a really good one as well so as some regular ones, I think almond milk would actually be classified as a high calcium style of nut milk as well like you would get some uptake from it still.
Stacey 34:41
You’ll get the calcium that’s already in the almonds but most alternative milks are supplemented or fortified with calcium anyway and then your uptake is going to better because these aren’t as acidic to the body as dairy would be.
Matt 34:54
But also some fruits like your oranges and figs are both really high in calcium as well so you can get some extra vitamin C in from you oranges and then also get in a lot of calcium as well .
Stacey 35:04
Yeah exactly, for plant-based people if they eat tofu you can get calcium from tofu and then also sesame seeds so even if you like sesame seeds is a pretty random one and you’re not really gonna have a handful of sesame seeds but what we tend to do is use sesame seed paste so tahini and we’ll put that into bliss balls or you know, snacks or even just use it as a dressing so you mix it with some water and some apple cider vinegar with some lemon and some pepper and it’s a really nice salad dressing.
Matt 35:35
It actually goes really well with just sweet potatoes too.
Stacey 35:39
Mmmm creamy.
Bill 35:39
Wow yum! okay cool so what about milk alternatives so we hear about and they’re not really milk, they’re called almond milk or soy milk or whatever, so are they good alternatives and what’s the deal with those like should we be swapping out with that kind of stuff?
Matt 35:58
Yeah definitely, I think there are some more favorable options here as well so I mean you’ve got a lot of your nut milks that you’ll find the difference between almond milk, coconut milk, macadamia milk, rice milk, you’ve got oat milk you’ve got soy milk, there’s all of these different types now there.. it does come down to the quality so where it’s firstly sourced from obviously is a big part.
Stacey 36:20
If it is organic it’s gonna be better.
Matt 36:21
I would say the big things to look out for with these milks is making sure that they don’t have a additives or sweeteners added to them because we can see I’ve got this almond milk but its sweetened with sugar and then it’s just a perpetual cycle like we’re just starting the whole circle again but realistically if we can get a good quality almond or coconut milk I’d say that they’re gonna be your better quality milks as long as they don’t have a nut allergy when it comes to something like soy once again depending on where the soy has come from if it’s non-organic soy I would stick away from it completely.
Stacey 36:53
It could be genetically modified.
Matt 36:54
But the issue with soy is that we can see like high level of estrogen with ti which is not a great thing for people to be having all the time, that’s when we start to see things like manboobs and infertility and bits and pieces happening so it’s not a great product to always be having or relying on as such things like
rice milk and oat milk, they’re good, they are going to be higher in carbohydrates so just making sure depending on what you’re using it for if you’re using it for a straight drink know that it is going to spike your sugar levels so if you’re having some rice milk you should potentially have it with something like
Stacey 37:27
collagen powder
Matt 37:29
Exactly because then you’re gonna get some proteins and some fats in with it as wee so you’re denting that sugar spike.
Bill 37:35
You guys are cute finishing each other’s sentences and everything.
Stacey 37:38
We used to do it a lot more but were not working as much together now that I’m starting to back away.
Bill 37:46
That’s so good, okay so milk alternatives generally are out so that we can basically just be aware that they are highly processed products in that they don’t come from any natural kind of source they come from a factory, they somehow extract the juice of these plants or nuts out and we need to make sure that we get the best ones I’ve recently had a bit of a look at coconut milk and coconut cream I use it a fair amount in some curries and some cooking and I really love it
and what I noticed was that the supermarket organic brand as supposed to the nonorganic brand, the supermarket organic brand was a whole bunch of junk added to it although it’s said organic and then it was watered-down a fair amount so you didn’t get the same amount of coconut I suppose extract out of it and it was a very very big difference when I looked at the two so even though it had the organic label, it didn’t seem to be the right option for me especially when I was cooking my dinner.
Stacey 38:53
Yeah Bill that’s a super valid point and so the caveat to the word organic is checking the ingredient absolutely because I would probably say if it’s got sugar and all the additives I probably chose the nonorganic over the that in that situation, it’s like okay organic is great but that person has paid money to get that label of organic whereas they’ve added a heap of other crap in to bring the cost down so you’re better of going with the nonorganic because it’s got less ingredients in it so that’s super valid. Thank you.
Bill 39:21
And it had fillers it was kind of like fillers and thickeners is what it had in the label so to make it look more like a coconut cream they added fillers to make it hold together better whereas the other one you opened the can and you stirred it up and it was coconut cream and there was heaps of it.
Stacey 39:40
That one won’t be fortified with calcium so it’s a great healthy fat we’ve got some medium-chain triglycerides in it but it won’t give people the calcium that they’re looking for so if they wanted to use coconut milk as a sauce chuck in tahini paste in there as well and that would be a great option to get some calcium in. if people want to make their own almond milk, it’s so easy because it’s literally just filtered water and almonds maybe a little bit of salt
Matt 40:04
blend it all up
Stacey 40:04
and blend it all together in some kind of food processor and you got your milk.
Bill 40:08
The whole almond?
Matt 40:10
Yeah!
Bill 40:12
Wow, awesome!
Stacey 40:13
you can use a bag to squeeze all the juices out but you might as well just get the benefits of the actual almonds just use enough water to make it into the consistency and the texture that you want.
Bill 40:26
Yeah cool so what’s the difference between milk now and milk 50 years ago, I know we had that discussion about gluten now and gluten then or wheat now and wheat then and I know there’s been a lot of controversies especially in Australia about the way the French make their dairy products and consume them and that were not allowed to use the same processes in Australia, I don’t know if it’s changed recently to make and consume our dairy products especially chesses and milk right, so what’s the difference between how it was done then and how it was done now?
Matt 41:03
I love this question, I actually grew up in a cattle farm we had our own cow so we literally go down to the cattle yards every day milk our cow, bring the milk back up or every other day bring the milk back up poured into our bottles drink the milk pure from the cow
Stacey 41:18
the cream on top
Matt 41:18
with the cream on top like scrape it off, it was incredible, it was absolutely so nice but
Stacey 41:23
never had any gut issues
Matt 41:23
no ever until I got older and start introducing different foods but the big thing came down to though it comes down to is the way that we process the milk now like we never used to homogenize and pasteurize our milk which is the eating process and the removal of a lot of nutrients because they wanted to get rid of the bad bacteria now there’s also the fact that because
we’re doing cattle farming or milk farming in such big amounts that there’s the risk of getting a lot more disease so we’re also pumping a lot more antibiotics into these cows which means their immune system goes down so when we now have cows with a lower immune system, we have to almost homogenize and pasteurize their milk because they’re in like a compromised state.
Stacey 42:06
immunosuppressed
Matt 42:07
Yeah exactly where they’re not producing healthy milk for us anymore whereas if you just got your own cow and it’s just down the paddock and you can go and drink from that cow you’re usually gonna get a lot better of a product it’s not gonna be filled with these potential diseases and different bits and pieces bacteria is a big thing.
Stacey 42:25
the heating and the pressurizing processes so the pasteurizing and the homogenizing can actually kill off not only the bacteria that they’re trying to kill but it also kills off beneficial enzymes so because Matties issue with milk is lactose when they heat it and pressurize it, they are killing the lactate enzymes that naturally usually comes in raw organic milk whereas so now he no longer has the enzyme in his body and he no longer has the enzyme in the milk whereas when he drank it straight from the cow, the lactate enzyme was still there and so his body had everything it needed from the milk to be able to digest and process.
Matt 43:02
so put differently they now make a lactase tablet so what I could go and do is have this lactase tablet with the milk that I buy from the store now and my body wouldn’t have many issues with it but the silly thing is that they’ve removed the lactase from the milk to now produce an extra product to be able to function properly which is not great.
Stacey 43:21
Or there’s milks like Zymil however you want to pronounce it but they reput the lactate enzymes back in and I don’t think I agree with that I mean I don’t know enough about it but it’s just another very processed artificial products that’s got some fillers in it’s got some stuff that shouldn’t be in there, it’s not just a straight-up milk.
I get why they’ve done it they obviously need to transport the milk from the place where it’s being farmed and they want it to last long enough to get to the people that want to drink it but it’s reduced or removed any nutrition from the food and it’s actually making people sick rather than healing and healthful
one of the things that Mattie mentioned was about the antibiotics and another reason they’ve had to start injecting the antibiotics is because some dairy farmers I think this is more the US I don’t know if it’s as bad here but they will inject extra hormones to the cattle in order to increase milk supply and that’s where they’re needing the antibiotics.
Matt 44:15
Another reason for them having to do that is because of the herbicides they’re using on the property so they’re spraying herbicides which then create these cows to have an imbalanced because they’re getting phalates and different chemicals within their bodies which pretty much sends them infertile which means they no longer produce the milk so they then have to pump them full of hormones which Stacey is talking about which then it just creates this really artificial unbalance cow that were now trying to take nutrients from which just no longer happens so realistically if you can have your own cow and your own field that’s great that’s the best way to do it.
Stacey 44:47
I was gonna say get a goat.
Matt 44:49
Yeah, get a goat, get a sheep, get a cow.
Stacey 44:53
It mows your yard and you can drink its milk.
Bill 44:54
Speaking of goats when i was i remember a young kid in Greece we would go to my aunt’s goats, milk the goats, bring the milk back, strain it so we get all the goat hair out and all that kind of stuff and then just drink it immediately from there it was all still body temperature they tasted amazing and sweet I still have this vivid memory of drinking it and it was really amazing the only thing was what the Greeks tended to do is with milk and I’m sure happens in other countries is they put a little bit of coffee in it so I’m four or five years old and I’m drinking milk
Matt 45:35
Buzzard!
Bill 45:35
with coffee in it and I don’t know why they did it but they did it, it was just a thing and you know talking about all the things that we’re addicted to and where it started, I mean it’s crazy.
Matt 45:49
You’re doomed from a young age.
Stacey 45:51
Are you still caffein free?
Bill 45:52
I am caffeine free I did have a coffee today with caffeine it was my first one this week remember I said to you I was with a friend we went and had a coffee I’ve been having decaf, they’ve been amazing and the kind of coffee I usually have which is related to this topic is I normally have a butter coffee so I want to talk about other dairy products like cheese and butter and whether or not they’re as inflammatory and how that works because we’ve spoken about milk for this majority of this episode so far so tell me about my decaffeinated butter coffee now.
Matt 46:30
Yeah, so I mean once again it comes back to where you’re getting the milk.
Stacey 46:35
the butter
Matt 46:36
Yeah, the butter from so what it’s original source was so it’s free-range.
Bill 46:37
It was grass-fed organic butter.
Matt 46:41
Excellent, so that’s usually going to be the best butter source you can get the big issue comes down to for all the listeners once again if it’s not that product then it’s going to go through that exact same process that we’ve just talked about and then they’re making butter out of it so that’s where the issues still come to you’re still having dairy that’s from a sick cow that unfortunately is not going to give you any nutrients and potentially just going to block your nose and give you diarrhea so when it comes to your organic grass-fed do you want to take over?
Stacey 47:12
No no you keep going.
Matt 47:13
Yeah, when it comes to this form it’s actually the best form you can get it in based on if you were to choose to have dairy that’s gonna be your best variation now when it comes to things like cheeses there’s definitely better cheeses that you can have so things like a brie cheese is not gonna be very favorable for you like it’s a very creamy thick cheese compared to something like a feta which is going to be a more favorable variation because of the way that they ferment it and break it down or the way that process to be made.
Stacey 47:42
And then with things like yogurt there’s all your happy bacteria in there so you’ve got your acidophilus and all that sort of stuff like lactobacilli so this stuff is great if you’re not lactose intolerant and you’re not casein and whey intolerant because all of those items, all of those carbohydrates and proteins or some of will still be present in these other foods because they’re derivatives of milk, they’re all made from milk.
Bill 48:13
Yeah, I’ve got to say if I have a butter coffee I feel amazing it doesn’t affect me, my belly in a negative way. If have milk it can tend to do that if I have a coffee it can tend to do that, today it hasn’t. I can’t say taht it has affected me and of that I’ve noticed so that’s pretty good. I am somebody who would get you know the runs or diarrhea sometimes after consuming milk or milk products, not usually cheeses but definitely you know cafe latte those types of coffees and the blocked nose this is really amazing that you said that
because often and I’ve never bicked up on the pattern but often I’ll go to bed and I’ll have a blocked nose and I wake up in the middle of the night with a dry mouth and you know you can’t breathe and need a drink of water etc and it’ll interrupt my sleep and I’m the kind of person who really needs sleep and I need a good solid seve or eight hours just because of now the way that my brain works and how I feel if I’m waking up without a good night’s sleep, I feel extremely fatigued then the cycle of the day doesn’t go right so I talked a lot about healing the brain with sleep
and that sleep is one of the most important things, and to eliminate blue lights, and to see the sun in the morning, and to protect ourselves from all those things that interfere with sleep, caffeine etc and, then now you guys have thrown another item into that list which i din’t realiz which is milk and that inadvertently interferes with sleep and for me, it’s that I’ll definitely wake up once in the middle of the night and I’ll need to as a result of waking up and havign that drink of water it will make me have to get up and go to the toilet and then when I do that then i’m awake and sometimes I cant get back to sleep and if that’s a three or four in the morning, that’s it.
Stacey 50:07
Game over.
Bill 50:08
Yeah, three or four hours for the night and that’s terrible for me.
Matt 50:11
So here’s another layout I want to lay on for all of the stroke sufferers or anyone who’s got Alzheimer’s or anything like that dementia within their family is that the protein in milk looks very similar to the protein that we have on the protective cover the myelin sheath of our different neurons now what happens is if your body has an issue with dairy or the protein in dairy so you get inflammation from this product and it breaks through into the gut barrier. it greeks past the gut barrier and it starts to get into your blood, what happens is now this is seen, this protein is now seen as a bad thing in your body
Stacey 50:49
it’s a threat
Matt 50:51
it’s a threat so what your body sees is protein from milk and protein from your myelin sheath being very similar so what it does is it attacks both so in long term if you are got an unhealthy gut with dairy and your body starts to attack it, it starts to attack your myelin sheath it starts to break it down which is not a great thing, that’s what MS is realistically multiple sclerosis and so when it’s attacking all that different neurons within the whole body, that’s not great for the brain in any stage.
Stacey 51:22
So we don’t find that out until much later in life.
Matt 51:25
When things like Alzheimer’s or dementia comes out so if you’ve got a family history of that, it’s a really good idea to really minimize the amount of dairy products you’re having.
Stacey 51:36
For that reason as well as all the others we talked about, I love what you touch on just before bill you said about you know getting outside, sunlight all that sort of stuff you reminded me that another reason they sell calcium oh sorry they sell dairy as like this big thing you need to have all the time is
because they fortify it with vitamin D and they’re like oh it’s the only food that you can get vitamin D from but getting out in the sun actually gives you so much more vitamin D and so much more beneficial vitamin D the reason they pair vitamin D in milk with calcium is because you need both in order to activate so you need calcium to activate the vitamin D from the food source when you get it from the sun you’re just getting the good dose of vitamin D without the artificial version that you get in milk.
Bill 52:23
And to absorb it from the artificial version you have to have a healthy gut and this said that you can really get good absoprtion of it when you consume it in that kind of way so if you’re not got a healthy gut then you can’t absorb as much as you need if you’re not getting enough sun so the cycle kind of always reminds us still all we got to do is go back to our roots, go back to the sun go back to eating as whole foods as possible decreasing their floods that’re inflammatory and giving us every option,
giving our body every option to just do what it always has done it’s been able to support us for thousands and thousandsx of years and evolve to keep us operating optimally and our brains healthy decrease the chanses of bad bones, decrease the chances of a unwell brain and organs that are not healthy you know just makes us get to what i want ot achieve which is an older age that has quality of life rather than just getting to eighty eight and not being able to move or be able to do anything i would rather get to 70 or whatever but have really high quality of life for that part of my life instead of having a really difficult life with dealing with stuff like
MS and dementia i know that strokes survivors are at a far greater risk of developing alzheimer’s and dementia later on in life just because of what happened in the brain and when we talk about you know myelination challenges so people who don’t know what myelin is, it’s the protective
sheath think of an electricity cable inside are all the wires that allow signals to go backwards and forward from different neurons or different brain cells that wire on that insulation which is typically white on an electrical cable gets damaged and that information doesnt get through it sort of jumps out or goes in other places so what i’ve discovered and learnt is
once a neuron loses its myelin and it’s protective sheath that particular neuron can’t get it back you can re-create neuronal pathways and structures and generate new neurons but that one that lost it has lost it forever and you cant fix it on that one, you’ve got to create new ones and then you’ve got to create an optimal environment for the new ones to grow
faster and quicker than the neurons that you’re losing so that’s kind of what becomes a little battle so definitely people needs to consider all those topics that we’ve discussed so far you know we’ve discussed sugar, episode 1 caffeine episode 2 glutten episode 3 dairy episode 4 our next episode is alcohol and before we wrap up guys i want to just bring people to an awareness of caffeine in milk with sugar sounds amazing
Stacey 55:28
Especially when you make it to an iris coffee and add some liquor to it too.
Bill 55:31
Alcohol later on as well, is what we consume on a daily basis in Melbourne you know we’re told that we’re the cafe capital you know we have a cafe culture, everything that we do, meetings you name it it all starts with around let’s go get a coffee or catchup at a local cafe but really what we’re doing is if we’re doing that too often we are really setting ourselves up for feeling unwell and not necessarily understanding how we’ve got to feel unwell right?
Matt 56:02
How many fat traders do you know right? Like the guys who go and get iced coffee to start their day and get another two or three throughout the day it’s very very common for people just to eat your bakery goods and have their iced coffee every single day it’s just i’s not a good way to start your day, its not a good way to set yourself up for success it’s a good way to add some extra fat onto the body and that’s something we didn’t talk about with dairy is dairy is originally made for making small mammals into big mammals so if you don’t want to be a big mammal it’s not great it’s not a great thing to be consuming .
Stacey 56:35
If we don’t want to get fatter then get rid of the dairy. another good reason.
Bill 56:39
Interesting so that’s a good thing lets talk about that a little bit so milk naturally if a dolphin has a baby and it feeds that dolphin becomes larger when the dolphin becomes a certain size it stops feeding you weaned it and we technically I suppose we in our own kids right but we then supplement with milk so what’s with all that like what is that about.
Stacey 57:04
Well actually in the olden days kids would actually breastfeed until they’rea bout seven years old the female body is designed to breastfeed until the kid is seven years old now that is ony weird for us because we now send our children to school and we have made it weird and at first when I heard that
I was like oh thats freakin weird but the more I think about it the more i’m like no that is its not just the only source of nutrition here as the child starts to get teeth and starts to be able to chew they will supplement that with food but they can still breast feed so we dont need to supplement with milk we just need to be willing to
I mean im not saying im gonna breastfeed my kids till they’re seven years old but there might be a need to supplement but it might not need to be dairy so we’ve got a good friend whose baby just weaned off from the breast of from the breasts about four months ago and she will supplement with almond milk because i think its just a very nurturing thing for a child to have a warm cup of something and then it’s still giving them good fats, it’s still giving them some calcium and it just helps her daughter to get ready for bed because it’s become this ritual right like you’ve come from being on the boob
And now you’ve come off the boob and it’s like oh hang on can they just be a transitionary period and now dad gets to be up well the babies are old enough to hold the bottle themselves now but you know dad gets to be a part of that process as well so I guess its less about needing to supplement with the alternative and more about a ritual that you’ve created to help your child go to bed.
Matt 58:43
Yeah, I think like you pretty much saying like naturally the body tends to wart other foods so it’s moving away from the milk so we don’t necessarily need the milk in it anymore like once your kid or if you look at the dolphin experience or a cow for instance eventually they just stop having the milk from the mother and they move on to grass instead because their dietary requirements change as they get older and move throughout life so it’s a very similar process for humans a dietary requirement changes from needing mothers milk to just needing food to keep us going.
Stacey 59:15
I mean that’s the perfect example right, the cow makes their milk for their baby not for us. the cow makes milk for the baby cow not for the humans so for us to be drinking as adults it’s just weird.
Bill 59:35
It tastes good, ice cream is amazing, cheese are amazing you know let’s borrow a little bit of milk and make some amazing things and sustain us and get some proteins and all that kind of stuff on smaller level or on a smaller scale if you need to, absolutely if you’re french you’re gonna need to eat cheese man I get it if you’re greek you’re gonna need feta like I totally get it like there is no issues.
Stacey 59:56
And I guess we’re lucky we’ve got alternatives that are quite helpful now so you do want to have ice cream like we’ll have coconut ice cream you know or almond ice cream.
Matt 1:00:04
There’s so many different variations now that are gluten-free dairy free variation.
Stacey 1:00:08
We’re not saying go do it every day but if you still wanna have some ice cream at a birthday party you source out something that’s gonna be more healthful so you still get to partake in being a human in 2019 without detriment to your body as well.
Bill 1:00:21
And coconut yogurt is also amazing now.
Matt 1:00:26
Coconut yogurt, coconut cheese that brings out all different variations that actually pretty good quality, yes there’s gonna be some form of yes it’s a processed food but at the end of the day so is cheese so is yogurt.
Stace 1:00:37
lesser of evils
Matt 1:00:38
Yeah, exactly so it’s just finding something that’s gonna work best for you.
Bill 1:00:42
That’s a beautiful way to end the podcast guys thank you so much for being on another episode, episode 4 of 5.
Outro 1:00:48
Discover how to support your recovery after stroke go to recoveryafterstroke.com.
