David Brook’s Inspiring Journey of Overcoming a Cerebellar Hemorrhage

David’s Journey: Overcoming a Cerebellar Hemorrhage and Thriving in Recovery

Seven years ago, David Brooks’ life took an unexpected turn. A healthy and active individual, David had never faced any major health concerns until one day at work in Cambridge, UK, when he was struck by something unusual—a cerebellar hemorrhage.

It began with a loud whistling sound in his ear, followed by a strange sensation of being pushed against the wall. David experienced intense vertigo, nausea, and vomiting, classic symptoms of a cerebellar hemorrhage. Unlike the more common strokes that affect speech or movement, a cerebellar hemorrhage primarily impacts balance and coordination, making it more difficult to diagnose.

What is a Cerebellar Hemorrhage?

A cerebellar hemorrhage is a type of stroke that occurs when blood vessels in the cerebellum, the part of the brain responsible for balance and motor control, rupture, leading to bleeding in the brain. This condition can result in serious complications, such as dizziness, difficulty walking, loss of balance, and even coma if left untreated. In David’s case, the hemorrhage was initially misdiagnosed as an inner ear infection, which is not uncommon for strokes in this area of the brain.

Cerebellar hemorrhages account for only a small percentage of all strokes, but they require urgent medical attention due to the delicate nature of the cerebellum’s role in motor functions and coordination. You can also learn more about cerebellar stroke recovery and how survivors regain their life in this interview with Elizabeth Cottone.

Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery: David’s Story

After being misdiagnosed at first, David was eventually transferred to a dedicated stroke unit where doctors identified the cerebellar hemorrhage. His treatment involved administering blood thinners to prevent further clotting and reduce the risk of another hemorrhage.

The exact causes of cerebellar hemorrhage can vary, but in David’s case, the root cause was traced back to a supercar racing accident years prior, which had damaged the arteries in his neck. Over time, this injury caused the artery walls to weaken and eventually rupture, leading to the stroke.

Despite the severity of his condition, David’s outlook remained positive throughout his cerebellar hemorrhage recovery. He spent two weeks in the hospital, enduring physical challenges such as severe vertigo and difficulty walking. Through physical therapy and sheer determination, David gradually regained his balance and motor function, particularly in his left hand, which had been severely affected by the hemorrhage.

Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery Time and Long-Term Effects

Recovery time for a cerebellar hemorrhage varies from person to person, depending on the severity of the stroke. For David, the process was slow but steady. It took him nearly two weeks before he could begin walking again, and over the following months, he worked diligently with physical therapists to regain control of his motor functions.

David also faced long-term effects of his cerebellar hemorrhage, such as occasional vertigo and coordination issues, particularly with his left hand. However, his persistence in practicing activities like drumming helped him rewire his brain to compensate for these deficits.

Staying Positive During Recovery

One of the most important aspects of David’s recovery was his ability to maintain a positive attitude. Throughout his journey, David found strength in humor, using it as a coping mechanism to deal with the emotional and physical challenges of his cerebellar hemorrhage. He encourages other stroke survivors to focus on what they can do rather than what they can’t and to take recovery one step at a time.

David’s advice to others is simple yet powerful:

• Don’t freak out. If you’re still here, there’s always a way through to recovery.
• Keep a sense of humor. You can find humor in almost any situation, and it provides relief during tough times.
• Stay positive. Focus on what you can do, and tackle problems in small chunks rather than all at once.
• Find a distraction. Having a hobby or interest helps keep the mind occupied in a positive way. For David, it was working and drumming.

Cerebellar Hemorrhage Treatment and Moving Forward

While the recovery process can be long and difficult, David’s journey shows that with perseverance, humor, and a positive outlook, it is possible to reclaim your life after a cerebellar hemorrhage. His story offers hope to others who are recovering from similar conditions and looking for guidance on how to move forward.

If you or someone you know is recovering from a cerebellar hemorrhage, remember that every recovery journey is unique. It’s important to take things one step at a time, seek support, and focus on what’s possible.

You can also learn more about cerebellar stroke recovery and how survivors regain their lives in this interview with Elizabeth Cottone.

David’s Inspiring Journey of Overcoming a Cerebellar Hemorrhage

David Brooks’ journey after a cerebellar hemorrhage shows how perseverance and targeted therapy can lead to incredible recovery. Learn how he regained his strength and balance.

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Highlights:

00:00 Introduction – Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery
03:25 Hospitalization and Initial Diagnosis
13:34 Cognitive Tests and Hospital Life
20:52 Recovery and Rehabilitation
28:59 Counseling and Personal Reflections
55:00 Dave Brooks’ Coping Mechanisms and Reflections
1:19:58 Reflecting on Mortality and Career Goals
1:27:44 Lessons Learned and Supportive Community
1:31:32 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript:

Introduction – Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery

Bill Gasiamis 0:00
Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 329 of the Recovery After Stroke Podcast. Today, I’m excited to introduce Dave Brooks, a cerebellar stroke survivor whose unique approach to recovery emphasizes humor, positivity and problem-solving. In this episode, Dave shares his journey from the initial shock of his stroke to the resilience he cultivated while dealing with new physical and cognitive challenges. His story is a powerful reminder of the strength found in embracing humor and staying focused on solutions even when faced with adversity.

Bill Gasiamis 0:39
Before we dive into Dave’s journey, I’d like to thank everyone who supports the podcast. If these episodes have provided insight, hope or support in your own life or for someone you love, please consider supporting the show at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke, your support keeps the podcast going, enabling me to bring you these invaluable stories of recovery and resilience. Thank you to all the listeners and everyone considering becoming a supporter.

Bill Gasiamis 1:12
Dave Brooks, welcome to the podcast.

Dave Brooks 1:15
Hi Bill, great to be here at last. It’s been fantastic.

Bill Gasiamis 1:20
It is good to have you, Dave, tell me a little bit about what happened to you.

Dave Brooks 1:26
So about seven years ago. Now, before I start, I haven’t said this is a bit cathartic for me, because I’m one of those people that looks forward. I don’t look back, I don’t reflect, you know, fix and move on. So it’s a bit, about an hour ago, I was thinking ‘You know what? I haven’t really talked to anybody about this in any sort of detail, what’s happened. So it’s a bit weird for me.

Dave Brooks 1:56
So I’ll go a bit strange, then you’ll know why ‘Okay, I’m not, I’m not emotional about these things, but it’s a so about seven years ago, I’d gone to work, and I was working in Cambridge in the UK, and I just come back off holiday, and you know how all these things are, that there’s a bizarre situation, and I’m sure you’ve heard it many times before. I’ve never been ill, I’ve never been into hospital, you know, apart from things, I’ve broken or, whatever, and I just gone into work, and I just gone to the toilet, and I was sitting on the toilet, you know. So, you know, this is the reality of it.

Dave Brooks 2:42
I was thinking ‘You know what, that fan up there sounds really loud. And it was getting loud, I think, what the hell’s going on? And then I was just sort of like, there was this invisible force trying to push me into, like, push me into the wall, I don’t know what’s going on. The bizarreness of being caught on the toilet and having thinking I have got to get out of here and back to my desk, and there’s like an absolute drive, and I managed to walk back out the office, and it’s like a really weird force, like somebody was pushing me, trying to push me against the wall.

Hospitalization and Initial Diagnosis

Dave Brooks 3:25
I got to my back to my desk, and died, I’ve known for a long time sitting, you know, he’s working next to me ‘Daddy, are you all right? ‘No, I feel pretty odd. And this guy, his dad, had had TIA about a year, he said ‘I think there’s something going on, I said ‘No, I don’t think so. Because, you know, he talked me about the symptoms, and I said, I don’t think that’s it, and then it was just this incredible vertigo, and I couldn’t get low enough to the ground. Very weird feeling, I was sitting on my desk, and that was too high so, and then I started being very, very nauseous.

Dave Brooks 4:08
So I thought, I’ve gotta go outside, sit outside, and just as soon as I got outside, just couldn’t stop throwing up, just because of the the it wasn’t it’s not a dizziness. It’s a very strange thing, and they didn’t really know what to do, and where I was working in Cambridge was about, probably 10 minutes from Anne Brooks Hospital, which is came it’s a University Hospital, so, you know, it’s well respected.

Dave Brooks 4:41
And I said ‘Look, just call Barbara, my wife, get to come and pick me up and take me home. Because, I thought was something a bit odd going on, and really loud whistling in my ear, you know, and so Barbara came in and she said ‘Just call an ambulance. Why didn’t you call an ambulance? I said ‘No, I just want to go home. I just want to go home.

Bill Gasiamis 5:07
Logic, the logic of women it went ‘Girl, just call an ambulance.

Dave Brooks 5:11
If I go home, I’ll be fine. And the ambulance was there probably within five minutes, the things are different now, and so that I was 61 then, and, you know, I’d never been in, never been into hospital or anything like that, like I should imagine. I have watched a few of the videos on your site. And, you know, I’m hearing you, I hear a similar sort of story. So they got me into hospital again, I just couldn’t stop throwing up. So they gave me an anti genetic injection, sorted that out.

Dave Brooks 5:50
But then, I was on the hospital, the bed, sort of stretcher thing, up on wheels. I said ‘I can’t, I can’t stay here. I’ve got to get on the floor, because everything felt like it was, like, really high up. So the doc, you know, the doctor that was there, said ‘Yeah, that’s fine. You do whatever you want to feel better till we find out what’s going on. They just assumed that it was like some inner ear infection, and I’ve subsequently found out that’s a very common misdiagnosis, which makes a cerebellar stroke incredibly dangerous.

Dave Brooks 6:31
It’s only afterwards you realize that, because it’s not the normal symptoms you get for a stroke, plus, what’s going on. With a stroke, most people, it’s a blank, it’s gone. Even TIAs, it’s gone. But with a similar cerebellar stroke, because of the way, if some reason, you just you’re fully aware what’s going on.

Bill Gasiamis 6:56
Yeah, the brain that’s impact is not not influencing your awareness, it’s not influencing your vision, your speech, the way that your face looks. It doesn’t do any of that because I my stroke, the hemorrhage was near the cerebellum and the second blade that I had were exactly those symptoms. The first bleed I had was the same symptoms, but on a lower scale, I go into hospital, they look at me and they think, this guy’s perfectly well, they have a scan, a scan shows something completely different, and I’m and I’m observing myself and thinking, I’m perfectly fine.

Bill Gasiamis 7:34
Also, I’m walking around the ward, you know, I’m talking to people. I’m meeting people at the cafe. The doctors are going ‘Where are you? What are you doing? And it’s all simply because of the location. And I was as as coherent as I am now the second time, I wasn’t because the bleed was a lot larger, it factored more of the areas of the brain. But vertigo, nausea, vomiting was all all my symptoms, and I describe it as my stroke, not being fast.

Dave Brooks 8:04
Exactly, exactly, and these are only things that you realize afterwards, I don’t, I’m not one for sort of, like, digging into too much research and all this sort of thing. But I did a little bit of, you know, searching around, you know, probably a month or so afterwards, and so they couldn’t fight, they didn’t know what to do with me, really. So I was just, I had to lie on the floor, and I think one of the senior nurses all came in, she said ‘You can’t, you can’t lie on the floor, we can’t have, if any press come in and see you lying on the floor.

Dave Brooks 8:41
This is going to be this, those photographs will go viral. They’ll be all in the newspapers, eventually, they put me just into a regular Ward, and guy came around to see me time, the time sort of moves about, although I remember exactly what happened. It’s sort of like stretch, you know, stretches and compresses. So I think over a period of probably an hour or so, because they didn’t know what to do with me, I guess it sounds like it’s similar with you, until something concrete happens. It’s like you got a problem with a computer or something.

Dave Brooks 9:19
If it’s intermittent, it’s difficult to fix until it goes completely wrong. So they are sitting in a ward, and a guy came round, and he brought a bunch of student doctors around as well, and they said ‘this is David Brooks, he’s 61, I was thinking. Who are they talking about? Who’s this old bloke they’re talking about? Because, we all have a different perception of how old we are. We don’t think I’m not a 61 year old bloke, and I was just thinking, I want to be home.

Dave Brooks 10:02
This was like the middle of the afternoon, I thought they’ll sort something out, and I’ll go home, that’ll be fine. Just wanted to go home, because that’s normality, and then they said ‘No, we’re going to keep you in overnight. And I was thinking ‘Oh, well, I don’t really fancy that. You know, this smacks of being properly ill, and there’s loads of other ill people around you, and I think that ‘Oh no.

Bill Gasiamis 10:27
We’ll take a quick break here and be right back with more of Dave’s story in a moment. While you’re here, I’d like to mention my book ‘The unexpected way that a stroke became the best thing that happened. It’s more than just a personal story. It’s a guide for post traumatic growth after stroke, filled with stories from other stroke survivors like Dave, who found ways to rebuild and thrive after their trauma. You can find it on Amazon or at recoverafterstroke.com/book

Dave Brooks 10:58
So Barbara, sort of like she stayed with me for a while, and then she went back and they again, just assumed it was some sort of weird inner ear infection that was, they kept giving me injections to stop me throwing up, couldn’t walk. I had a couple of interviews with some senior consultants, and they liked my description of how it was. So it was like trying to walk in a very long rowing boat in a rough sea. So you’re trying, it’s not like you’re drunk and you’re just going all over.

Dave Brooks 11:42
It’s sort of like sort of like you’re walking forwards and it’s sort of, it’s going like ‘Whoa, what’s going on? And the next day, guy came around. He said ‘Yeah, we think you’ve had a stroke, but it’s not a normal stroke. He said, to be honest, one of my students suggested it. And I thought, that’s a that’s a good move, you know, I applaud that. One of the students said ‘Do you think it might be a Cerebella stroke? And so he looked into it said ‘Yes. Whip straight after the they’ve got a dedicated stroke unit at Anne Brooks hospital.

Dave Brooks 12:16
Took me in there, and, you know, he knew what was happening. So, it gave me some whole load of blood thinners and some basically, I can’t what it is, it’s like a really strong aspirin, and there’s not much more they can do, and they had no idea what had caused it. I’m not a drinker, don’t really drink, maybe I love it like a beer once a month at the most, I’ve never smoked, I’m not particularly overweight.,I eat reasonably well, and so, they’ve gone through all these questions of various things.

Dave Brooks 12:55
So then that evening I, my wife was came in to visit, and then just I was on the bed, and I just suddenly was just like, just seeing, it’s like, fairy lights absolutely everywhere, and I was obviously doing something which was, freaked her out, but she’s trying to find somebody, and this guy said ‘Oh, I’m not, I’m don’t specialize in this. But look, you know, you’re a doctor, what they didn’t say, which I think was not wrong, but they didn’t say that there’s not much we can do.

Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery –
Cognitive Tests and Hospital Life

Dave Brooks 13:34
We’ve given all the medication, which is blood thinners, and these sort of, like, super aspirins to sort of just make the blood thin so that you’re not going to get a problem, and they didn’t know whether it was a bleed or anything, but they knew it was a cerebellar stroke. So the next day, I was fine, but walking just horrendous, and then I had the head of the stroke unit came in, and he gave me a chat, and then they started doing all the weird tests, cognitive tests, which they don’t, you don’t realize at first you’re being tested.

Dave Brooks 14:16
They’re asking you things like, so to ‘Where do you look? Okay, okay, ‘So what day of the week is it? And then they start doing the because the cerebellum, as you will very well know, is about fine motor control. So if you can’t reach in and touch your nose or something, and it was all my left side, all my left side was just like, all over the place, and I ended up being in hospital for two weeks, but what is really weird, having never been in hospital, first night, I was thinking, I’ll be going home tomorrow.

Dave Brooks 14:55
The next the second thing ‘Oh, no you’re not, you know, you’re not going home tomorrow. So it, another day I think ‘Oh no. By the third day is looking apple pie and custard today, and you think, I’ve been institutionalized in three days flat, and I don’t, I don’t feel I’m that sort of person. It’s very, very weird, and I think I went through CT scans. They didn’t do an MRI scan, they did the CT scan with the really weird injection where you feel like you’ve wet yourself, which I’m not quite sure.

Dave Brooks 15:35
They inject something automatically that’s connected up to it, and that, in itself, becomes a sort of like something that you talk about, you’re in a queue, you know, waiting for something, and somebody said ‘Oh yeah, come in for I’ve had some stents that have gone wrong, and there’s only a young girl that’s sort of saying she was, she was going in for another scan, and I said ‘Have you had a weird injection yet? Yeah, I’ve had the weird injection, it’s really weird.

Bill Gasiamis 16:02
The contrast going into the veins.

Dave Brooks 16:04
Yeah, and it probably took about, I think, something like three or four days before they sai ‘Right, we don’t know what’s there’s there isn’t a bleed. So, you know, with the scans that they’ve done and the cerebellum is difficult to discover things with a CT scan, because there’s loads of bones around here that just block how you look in they eventually did an ultrasound all up my neck, and the guy who was doing it, he said ‘You I could see there was something a bit odd. I said ‘Just tell me, tell me. There’s two. I think there’s two or three, sort of like big arteries run up the back here.

Dave Brooks 16:51
He said ‘Have you had a head injury? No. ‘Well, one of them’s like completely crushed, and the other ones, what badly damaged? What the hell, and it was only when I went, got back to the ward that I realized I used to race super carts, which I did for about okay, it’s a big thing in Australia.

Bill Gasiamis 17:18
It’s huge. Like, it’s a massive support.

Dave Brooks 17:20
It’s fast, and I had an accident at about 100 odd miles an hour, and I flipped forwards, smacked my head, landed on the wheels, broke my shoulder, did my thumb, you know, but adrenaline just right. I’m going out to get to get this fixed, and I mentioned this to the main consultant, he said ‘That will be it. It’s just the way he explained it was, is very simplistic terms that when I was younger. So that was probably 15 years prior to that, 12 years maybe. But the when you damage something like that, when you’re younger, you’re a little bit fitter, that doesn’t really affect anything.

Dave Brooks 18:12
But as you get older, things slow downm your body’s gradually wearing out. That damage like that can suddenly have an effect, and the with it wasn’t even there was no stress or anything at work. I was just sitting on the toilet, and some all went mad.

Bill Gasiamis 18:29
Maybe it was a big toilet session, mate.

Dave Brooks 18:32
Well, I know it sounds a bit crass, but it’s sort of, I find it quite funny. I think so. Reason that I sort of got in touch with you was because, oddly, I was talking to a friend of mine who also had a stroke, but he had a proper bleed, a really bad so I’m also a drummer, I’ve been playing drums for the Donkeys Years, and he’s a friend who’s a guitarist that I’ve played with before, and he had a properly bad stroke, to the point where he’s now still.

Dave Brooks 19:06
If he touches guitar strings with his fingers, he says ‘It’s like razor blades. It’s horrible. So he and I was chatting, I said ‘I was just told in the toilet story. And he said, so he’s obviously looked at your channel at some point, he said ‘You talk to Bill. He says ‘They find it hilarious.

Bill Gasiamis 19:25
That’s right up my alley, mate. That’s awesome and embarrassing, and potentially, you know, it could have been a lot worse. It could be more disgusting than what it ended up being. So it all worked out well.

Dave Brooks 19:40
it’s amazing how your body, given that it’s like something serious is happening, and the fear of embarrassment, of being somebody having to thinking somebody’s going to have to break in here, they’re going to pull me off the toilet in you know, my pants and trousers are down that up, that is not happening. So clearly, there’s some adrenaline and that, you know, the drive, but it’s, I found it’s having done a lot of research on afterwards, I’ve realized that Cerebellar stroke.

Dave Brooks 20:15
It’s a relatively there’s a small percentage of cerebellar strokes, and back then, they were less well understood, and they’re still not that well understood. I’ve watched a couple of channels as an American woman. I can’t remember her name, she’s done some very good descriptions of her cerebellar stroke and how you know it is about the fine you know part of your brain is bringing your arm in like this. The reason for the cerebellum is that it’s actually doing that fine little bit of motor control for you know, when you’re doing various things.

Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery
and Rehabilitation

Bill Gasiamis 20:52
Coordination and etc, I remember when you’re telling me about your embarrassment toilet episode, and you don’t want to get you don’t want to be in there when everyone’s coming to rescue you. I’m one one day out of brain surgery, and my left side doesn’t work, I can’t walk at all, and I can’t use my left arm, and I’m in the ward and I need to go to the toilet, and that’s really important, of course, after surgery that people go to the toilet. So the nurses, the doctors, everyone encourages it.

Bill Gasiamis 21:25
They’re always asking, you going to the toilet? And I wasn’t going. I wasn’t going because sometimes motility slows down after a surgery, and they were giving me laxatives. And they were giving me laxatives day one, and then there was nothing happening, and then they were giving me laxatives day two, and then there was nothing happening, and then the laxatives started to kick in. I had the urge, so I pressed the buzzer to get the nurse there, and she was nowhere to be seen.

Bill Gasiamis 21:52
My nurse was busy, right? She would have had a heaps on her plate, and there was no one turning up. And I’m thinking, I’ve got to go to the toilet that I can’t this can’t happen here in the bed, I’ve got to go to the I haven’t been for how many days this could be ugly, you know. And there’s a and there’s a wheelchair next to me, because the family’s been in, they’ve taken me for a drive on the wheelchair, and we’ve gone down to the cafe or whatever over the last few days, and I find myself thinking ‘I’ve got to do this, I’ve got to get in the wheelchair somehow.

Bill Gasiamis 22:26
And it was what you described, like I found some kind of superhuman strength right to use half my body to get into the wheelchair. I’ve got into the wheelchair, and I’ve just wheeled myself into the sliding door. So the sliding door, had I pushed it over? Just wheeled myself past the sliding door. And as I did, the nurse walked in and said ‘What are you doing? I said ‘I’m sorry you didn’t turn up, I had to go to the toilet. It’s happening, and I’ve got to go now. And she’s going ‘Alright, let me help you up.

Bill Gasiamis 22:54
And she helps me up, and then she hasn’t left the room. I said to him ‘Oh, yeah, what are you doing? And she said ‘Oh, I’ve got to stay in, I’ve got to stay with you in case you fall down. I said ‘No, you can’t stay with me, you don’t understand, like I can’t be, I can’t have you in here while I’m going to do what I’m going to do, you have to leave because I cannot leave.

Bill Gasiamis 22:55
She said ‘I’m not allowed to leave. I said ‘You must leave. I had a conversation with her, almost an argument for about what was it seemed like forever, but it was about 30 to 40 seconds. You must leave ‘No, I can’t leave. You must leave. And I said to her ‘Alright, I promise I will not move, I will not do anything other than what I have to do, if just close the door and stand on the other side of the door, please? And she did, and then it was on for young and old.

Dave Brooks 23:52
Yeah, I think it is, I found that straight I think it’s something that happens, probably happens to everybody when you haven’t been in hospital before, and normally, stuff that you do in private, you do in private, and, stuff like that. But I think if you’ve been in hospital for a while, I think some of those inhibitions will go because it’s something that has more often, but I found the difficult one was just walking to the toilet. That was a mission, and they said ‘If you, if you’re going to the toilet, you know, you had to call somebody.

Dave Brooks 24:26
Now, sometimes somebody, people weren’t there, and they said ‘You can’t go by yourself. And I was thinking ‘I’m bloody, and it must have looked so strange. And they then, when I started to get a bit better, probably after the first week, I was sort of okay to get about, and basically, one of the one of the docs, I can’t remember who they, they said ‘If you can walk out of here, go down the corridor, go down the stairs, along the corridor, downstairs, hours and come back up, back to your bed, you can go home.

Dave Brooks 25:03
I was thinking ‘Shouldn’t have told me that, because that was an absolute challenge. And I was getting it was difficult, you know, it, took say, about another week. But I found the difficulty with the whole toilet thing is, I was that first week I was sleeping a lot. I think all this stuff just drains you, not physically, but that drain you get when you’ve done an exam or something, you come out and you, your brain is just sort of like fried, and then when I started, I was coming out of that, and I just, how do I relieve this boredom?

Dave Brooks 25:49
So bored you can’t watch daytime TV, you watch it the first day. Think I can’t do that. I’m looking outside, all these people walking around outside, and down in the light, I think I just want to be out there taking my dog for a walk, you know, that’s what I want, and then you’re thinking ‘Oh, I’ll go to the toilet and clean my teeth, you know, just leave the board and or I’ll just go to the toilet or something like that. And then, like, the end of the day, this nurse came out said ‘We’ve noticed you’re going to the toilet quite a lot. We just want to check.

Dave Brooks 26:21
I think it’s nothing to do with you. I said ‘We need to know why you’re going to the toilet because, as I said, Look ‘I am so bored I will do anything to relieve the border if that means going to the bathroom four times a day to clean my teeth, because I can’t go very far, that’s what I’m going to do. And they put also, they they said ‘You know, if you need to go to the toilet and eat, you know, at night, when the lights are out, you need to call somebody. That was my training time, because there’s only the night staff on so I could actually sort of move about.

Dave Brooks 27:00
They give me some physio things to do, and then that was my goal to sort of like just, I didn’t go down the stairs at night, but I was walking up and down the corridor and making my way back. But the hospital is a very strange place when you’ve not been there before. You know you it was a guy who was at the end, he was quiet during the day, never said anything and suddenly that he, I think he may have come in off the street, because, you know, they tidied him all up, and he was just quiet during the day. And then the lights would go out at 9 or 10 o’clock, and he just starts shouting.

Dave Brooks 27:38
And I think ‘Oh, no, I don’t want to be here, I don’t want to be here. And the guy who was between me and this other like he said ‘He tried to get into bed with me last night. He said ‘When are you going out? I want your bed. There’s some I think humor is a massive thing, you know, you’ve got to see. I think there’s two things. One is, don’t fight stuff. This was talking to a friend about the other day, you know, there may be a load of stuff you can’t do.

Dave Brooks 28:10
I was thinking ‘Will I be able to play the drums again? And I was thinking ‘Well, okay, I can’t really do anything in the left hand, but I’ve always played you can play drums just one handed.

Bill Gasiamis 28:21
You know drummer from Def Leppard that did it.

Dave Brooks 28:25
Exactly, so there is a way around thinking that’ll be okay ‘I can do that, do that. And it’s sort of, I think that, and seeing the humor in situations stops you going nuts. I think it was one of the things I mentioned to you in the early thing, I think pulling your way through something, I’ve never been properly ill before, in the grand scale of things, probably that wasn’t what I went through, could have been quite bad, but it wasn’t. It has not like have a massive heart attack or something, but it’s, it’s up here.

Counseling and Personal Reflections

Dave Brooks 28:59
In fact, that’s one of the, one of the physios. Because after I came out hospital, very good, they organized physios. I had whole lot of cognitive tests that I had to do. I couldn’t drive for two months, and one of the also, they brought somebody around. There’s two women came around, one was to talk to my wife separately in the kitchen, which I think was almost like a, it’s almost like a counseling thing. And one was came to talk to me privately at the Conservatory, and they were asking all these questions, like, you know ‘Do you feel like not carrying on?

Dave Brooks 29:39
Well, look, to be honest, wait for you to go, because I’ve got a load of stuff to do, you know. I want to get on with something, because I have to do, I have to be doing something, making something or you know. So I think having that attitude of. I’m going to find a way around this, what can I do, rather than what can’t I do, and all the funny stories about, you know, what’s going on, or just seeing, having, seeing the funny side of it, and like when I was talking to a friend, he was saying, it’s, he found he struggled.

Dave Brooks 30:24
I don’t talk to people about this like I said, I’m a bit, I look forwards not backwards, but I think I tend to deal with things in a way that suits me. I’ve got problems of I’ll go out for a walk with a dog or something, and I don’t internalize it. I think that’s a common thing that people level, particularly at men, I do internalize it. What I’m doing is fathoming out, if I do this, I can do that. If I do this, I can do that, and just logically working through stuff, but not thinking about the whole thing.

Dave Brooks 30:59
It’s like, how do you solve a big problem, how do you how do you eat an elephant, small bites? And I think, there’s times when I felt, you know, thinking ‘Oh, is this going to come back? What’s going to happen? And I’ve got a friend who’s a GP, and he said ‘I said, Well, you know, what can I do? He said ‘Well, to be honest, Dave, you’re not really in the risk group. You know, something else has caused this, and you know, that’s when, that was just before, when I spoke to the consultant.

Dave Brooks 31:33
But the really weird thing is, these cognitive tests they do, and they do it with all the patients in the stroke Ward, which is they’re asking them, and you’ll get some old bloke opposite me, really nice old bloke, probably not much older than me. But he was saying, I’ll say ‘How are you? Finally chat away. And the nurse will come and said ‘Oh, how are you today? ‘Fine. And they say ‘You know what day is it? And he just come out with some random thing. I said ‘Do you know where you are?

Dave Brooks 32:09
And then he showed, she showed him, you know, her little sort of lapel watch on a uniform. He said ‘This is a clue, do you know what’s this? He said ‘It’s the 1927 congressional model, medal first. I think he’s ill, but on the face of it, he’s just sort of like a fairly normal old bloke. So it was interesting being in the stroke unit, because they’re they’re testing you, and I know.

Bill Gasiamis 32:41
You don’t identify as having had a stroke. Still, even though they’ve told you what’s happened, etc, you’re looking around and you’re seeing these different versions of it, and you’re going, I just need to get out of here. I need to go home.

Dave Brooks 32:54
Exactly I did get a lot of so a lot of the time that I’ll get, they’ll ask me, Do you mind if a student comes in and talks to you? And I think possibly was, because, besides a Cerebella stroke, and I sort of know what’s going on, and I can reflect and remember what’s happened, they were asking me questions, which was probably not the response they were getting for some of the other patients in there. So the actual thinking response, yeah, because they don’t remember.

Dave Brooks 33:25
And even very early on, one of the consultants said he came in, he said ‘I’m going to give you three words, and I’m going to come back in an hour, and I expect him. So it’s lemon key ball, and I will never forget them, you know. And whenever he walked past in the ward, I go, never key ball, sort of like they’re not having me like that, but it was you probably been, it sounds like you’ve been through quite a bit more because you’ve had, sort of multiple things. But I sort of saying to a friend, it’s you’ve got to have because I’ve never been ill before.

Dave Brooks 34:11
I always occasionally wondered how I would behave if I was seriously ill, and I’m happy that I behaved the right way. Thinking positive, which is difficult, but thinking ‘Well, I can do this. So before you know, what can I do rather than what can’t I do?

Bill Gasiamis 34:32
One of my problems is like, what are the solutions, rather than what am what are the problems? It’s very the mindset that you have as a default is a really great thing, which a lot of strokes have always struggled with their mindset, because they might be experiencing a version of the stroke that’s far more serious, they may have far more challenges to overcome, and it’s a lot of overwhelm. It’s like, where do I start? And they also have a different way of looking at life and experience.

Bill Gasiamis 35:00
Illness and dealing with trauma and all that kind of stuff. And it’s a very different it’s a very different experience, but one of the people that are on my podcast, who actually come onto the podcast seem to have like that, a solutions focused approach, and they’re cognitively trying to get their head around that they are wrestling with thoughts, ideas. They’re putting it out there, they’re speaking, they’re sharing with other people, they have a lot of things in common. The people that come on the podcast, the people that sit back and listen to the podcast, who are curious.

Bill Gasiamis 35:36
Maybe I’ll be on the podcast one day, or maybe when I’m ready, I’ll reach out. There’s signs that you’re starting to accept this thing and deal with it and find ways around it, adapt, look at ways to still have an awesome life, even though you’re dealing with a lot of drama and problems. So I see a lot of patterns in in in the way that people get to where you’re at some take longer, but you just seem to get there quicker. Is that a reflection of your personality just before stroke anyway? Is that how you tackled life’s challenges?

Bill Gasiamis 36:15
Because I imagine, as a bloke who’s got a partner, you know, stuff’s gone wrong with partners with it may have been family members, work situations. You know, you still, even though you’re mild mannered, right, and you’re just coming across as cool, calm and collected, you still been in life. You’ve had life happen to you. So, it’s how you responded, extension of how you responded to other serious situations in life.

Dave Brooks 36:38
Yes, well, yes. So Barbara, my wife, was excellent, and I didn’t realize a lot of stuff that was going on in the background. She was freaked, and I’m sure you hear that, you know, a lot of the time, she was also hyper vigilant, which was driving me nuts. I said, I want to go and walk the dog. ‘No, no, no, no, I’ll come in with you. ‘No, no, I’ll be fine. Just go over the road. ‘No, no, no, I’ll be so I am not particularly emotional. I mean, I joke that my emotions were surgically removed at birth. It’s not quite true, but I don’t let things get to me too much.

Dave Brooks 37:30
You know, I will blow, there’s an inner monkey that sometimes you can’t keep it down, but most things are just let go by, you know, so, so I think what you were saying is that type of behavior probably leads to not being freaked out. You know, you’re not really changing, there are say that were times when you’re thinking ‘Will I be able to drive again? I can’t, I can’t manage if I can’t drive. You know, I’ve been driving since I was 16 on, you know, mopeds and motorbikes.

Dave Brooks 38:05
So that would be horrendous, but those things I wasn’t until I got much later on, I was thinking ‘Okay, I’m not allowed, because they just don’t let you drive for two months. So I was thinking ‘Oh, that would all right, be okay. And then you start to worry about it. But then you think, well, what could I do instead? So it’s finding alternatives all the time. It’s problems, it’s actually problem solving, which is, you know, I’m a software developer, mainly, and that’s, that’s my job. So it’s sort of, I guess that’s my way of looking at it, don’t let things get to me too much.

Bill Gasiamis 38:44
How long have you been? Sorry, go say that. Finish what you’re saying here, sorry.

Dave Brooks 38:49
I think one of the things I found interesting was when one of the I can’t believe it was a physio, or whether it was one of the women who came around who was doing some sort of cognitive tests or counseling or something. She said ‘You don’t seem to be freaked by this at all. I said ‘Well, I don’t feel freaked so, you know, occasionally, sort of think, you know. And she said ‘That’s what gets most people.

Dave Brooks 39:16
There’s all the physical stuff. It’s true of any sort of more serious illness. It’s up here. If you can crack it up here, that’s a big part of the problem, yeah? So sorry you could not you’re gonna say.

Bill Gasiamis 39:31
It’s okay, yeah, that not getting freaked like, if you can stay cool, calm and collected, if you can just stay calm about the situation, you’re also helping the situation actually. You’re actually making a massive positive you’re creating a massive positive influence on how the situation plays out, even though you’re kind of out of control when something’s happening in your head, but by being calm, you’re not bringing that terror.

Bill Gasiamis 40:02
And you’re not bringing that version of sort of like that unsettledness, into a situation that’s already to potentially, kind of on the brink of being difficult and unsettled.

Dave Brooks 40:17
I was thinking about this today. I was thinking it’s not it’s not about suppressing all these feelings, thinking ‘Well, I’ve got all these things, what’s the solution to that? What’s the solution to that? What’s so that? I think it’s what it sounds like you’re saying. You see, fairly often as people are rationalizing the situation and happy to talk about it, and I think you gotta ask, how long did it take me to get back?

Bill Gasiamis 40:45
I was gonna before we get to that. It’s, it’s about, I think some, I think it’s good if you can be aware of all of the challenges, park them for now, deal with the ones that are most pertinent right now.

Dave Brooks 40:58
Absolutely, yeah.

Bill Gasiamis 40:59
And then, and then when it comes time to break out, get emotional, cry, angry, all of that. Allow that to happen as well. And it’s observe yourself going through that allow it to happen, don’t suppress it. Ride the wave, you know, whatever that looks like, but it’s definitely about picking the right moments for the appropriate response for the situation if you can.

Bill Gasiamis 40:59
And that helps tremendously, getting you through hospital, getting you through a bad day, getting you through a difficult news, it all helps. Waking up with a deficit you don’t know if you’re going to have to live with for the rest of your life. Do you know there’s a right time to deal with all of it, and maybe a right location too? So I like that. What that approach that you’ve got? But does that also mean that people find you kind of difficult to read? Are people always wondering about you thinking this guy should be freaking out more because I would be.

Dave Brooks 42:02
I mean, I find I said to Barbara, don’t tell too many people, not because I didn’t want them to know. But I can’t stand that people coming up saying ‘Oh, how are you? I think I don’t know. I’m scared with things online, you know, it’s sort of and also situation people don’t quite know what to say to you. I will chat to people about this, but I’m not going to broadcast it, you know, unless it’s, you know, because, well, but what? You’ve done, is it, yeah, is sort of quite interesting. One of the things that I found did affect me was, although a cerebellum stroke doesn’t affect your speech necessarily.

Dave Brooks 42:54
I was finding that sometimes when I was talking, I would get like, almost like a my brain wasn’t connected to part of my mouth. So it wasn’t I was standing stupid. I was thinking, you know, that sounds a bit fluffed, and because one of my other things I do is I’ve built drones for about 15 years, I fly drones, I’ve operated with commercially, I still do. I built, I also fly First Person View drones, you know, with the goggles, where you fly through all that stuff. And somebody thought that might have been the cause of it, you head up like this, I said ‘No, that’s just.

Bill Gasiamis 43:41
Well, there is one of those conditions, lumberjack disease, they call it in America.

Dave Brooks 43:46
Okay.

Bill Gasiamis 43:47
Where in that forestry industry back in the old days when they were chopping trees down with the ax and then looking up to see where the tree falls? Interesting, that used to damage the carotid arteries or the vertebral arteries, whichever ones are at the back, always forget, and it used to cause dissections in the arteries, and as a result of that, that would cause a clot and that would cause a stroke, it was very common.

Dave Brooks 44:18
Interesting. So what I did was, I did have a little YouTube channel just about with it. So there’s sort of two types of drones, as the camera drone, you know, the drones that sort of cinematic DGI type drones. And then there’s the FPV stuff, which is, if you take your hands off the sticks, they just fall over, you know, you have to fly them, and it’s all done with the goals. So I’d sort of, I had a bit of a, you know, so it’s a niche with it. Drone stuff is sort of a niche, but this is, like a niche within that niche.

Dave Brooks 44:48
And I’ve done a few YouTube videos, and I thought, You know what, I’m going to try and do something which forces me almost like an exercise, almost like physio. So I started doing things to camera, learning how to read from a teleprompter, which is actually really hard, you know I well, I used to work for a period. I worked for BBC News. I worked with a lot of news readers. When they do it, you realize they are very good at what they do, it’s because they don’t look like they’re staring at the camera like this, and it’s taken a while.

Dave Brooks 45:29
I mean, that’s I’ve carried on doing that because I think it’s almost, it’s like an exercise, really. But I don’t know about you, but all a lot of the tests that I was doing that was given in hospital, like reaching out and trying to touch things I still do in the shower. Every morning I stand there, I’ve got these tiny little tiles all over the bathroom. They are going to touch that cross between those, from here to there, just to make sure that with both hands, that it’s going where I want it to go.

Bill Gasiamis 46:00
That’s a great thing, that’s a great thing to monitor as well.

Dave Brooks 46:05
It’s a measure, it’s a quantitative measure of what’s going on. Because, you can, you can lose things without realizing, sometimes I think you’ve got to be able to do something. But it took me, I went after, after I came out of the hospital, I was doing the physio. I then volunteered to do a subsequent cognitive test at another hospital, which is a little bit closer, because it, you know, I was thinking, you know, gotta do this, and it was all about things like get you to stand on one leg with your arms out, and your eyes shut.

Dave Brooks 46:41
And all the things that are actually quite difficult anyway, and starting at 100 count backwards, taking seven off each time, and all these things. And they give you, at the beginning, they give you a reasonably complicated address, and then after the hour, they say ‘What was that address we gave you? I’ll say ‘Oh, blimey, you know. And I think people would, don’t, would struggle with that anyway. But a lot of what they’re doing is sort of, they’re testing simple things, like, what day of the week is, and all that sort of thing.

Dave Brooks 47:13
But I found that I don’t want to shy away from that stuff, because it is a maybe it’s because my background sort of engineering, it’s sort of, I want to be able to know quantitatively how well I’m doing, but what I was doing, I was really overcompensated to try and make out I was fine. So when they were asking me to do certain tests, I was doing it so fast, you know, just to show, yeah, it’s not problem, anything, draw around this and do this, I think. And I was just, it was too much, I was just not showing off.

Dave Brooks 47:53
But I was overcompensating to make out that actually I was fine, but I wasn’t really things like I’ve always I’ve always run up and down stairs. For some reason, even now, I will run up and down stairs, and it’s probably only in the last two years that I can confidently run downstairs again without holding on to anything. So it’s actually taken quite a long time, and I think probably I’m back to about high 90s in terms of the fixed but there’s just little things that goes but I used, practicing drums and drum rudiments to get my left hand going, because I think can I play drums again?

Dave Brooks 48:38
Which was actually a really good thing to complement the physio exercises that I’ve been given. And now I sort of got bored of playing drums after all those years. Well, it’s mainly all the travel, to be honest, and dealing with awkward people, the actual gigs are fine, but I start to think, should I start playing drums again? But I realized that actually, I’ll be fine to play in a band again, but my left hand doesn’t quite have the definition that it used to.

Bill Gasiamis 49:14
Muscularly.

Dave Brooks 49:16
And it’s like very fine control it. I just can’t do it, and I’ve practiced and practiced and practiced. So if I go into something, so I do something, it will take a couple of goes. It’s almost like it has to rev up. What that one of the consultants told me, thing about the brain is it doesn’t fix itself. If you’ve got a damaged part of your brain anywhere, it doesn’t fix itself.

Dave Brooks 49:44
But what the spare capacity that actually you have to, sort of like, you don’t know you’re doing it, but if you’re practicing doing something the same thing over and over again, your brain is learning new ways or different sort of halves, whatever it is to just sort of relearn how to do that.

Bill Gasiamis 50:08
Plasticity side of it, it’s just literally about applying that particular task to another part of the brand that isn’t damaged, that’s just picking up the slack.

Dave Brooks 50:21
And also, when they were giving me tasks to walk anywhere, stuff like that, I was going really fast, and they were saying, No walking fast, that’s something where you can do easily, because it’s not using mainly using your brain. You have to do things slowly, because that’s where you’re using your brain, it becomes a, sort of like, almost like a, I don’t know how it works, but I was going hell for leather or anything.

Dave Brooks 50:51
Any exercises that the physios gave me, I was just doubling it, you know, which may have been good may have been bad, I don’t know, but I feel fine now, I sort of, I say I’ve talked to my friend about it. I’ve come across somebody else.

Bill Gasiamis 51:07
I reckon you’re trying to convince yourself more than you’re trying to convince them.

Dave Brooks 51:11
Yeah, absolutely it’s like, it’s a self drive thing. It’s not, you know, but there is an element of saying, Look, I’m okay, but it’s almost like you’re overdoing something, you know, to try and prove a point, because you don’t want to feel that you’ve been singled out or ill, basically.

Bill Gasiamis 51:34
Fair enough.

Dave Brooks 51:34
But it’s some, I think now it’s sort of, I’d say it’s like 98-99% fixed.

Bill Gasiamis 51:42
Yeah, I was going to ask you about like, your time from hospital to home and then back to driving and back to work. How did all of that happen? How did it unfold?

Dave Brooks 51:56
So I was in hospital for a couple of weeks. I then had so I couldn’t drive for two months, so I stopped doing any work. I’m freelance contractor, so I can choose to work when I like, and it was after when I could start driving again. That’s when I went back into I had, like, a month or left on that contract. So I went back in and did some stuff, and it was fine. I wasn’t, I was only operating at probably 70, 75% at best. Outwardly, inwardly, I think it was probably less than that.

Dave Brooks 52:39
But you don’t admit it to yourself, you think it’d help you, this would be alright. You know, it’s just trying to be positive about it, and you can’t, I don’t think you can be truly honest. I mean, the main thing, I mean, Barbara was fantastic, did freaked her out, and I think part of trying to show that you’re not as ill as you are, particularly so you don’t freak your kids out, you know. I mean, our kids are they’re older.

Bill Gasiamis 53:06
But pretending things are better than they are so that everyone else stays calm.

Dave Brooks 53:12
But the good thing about having kids is you can train them to have the same sense of humor as you and hate the same things that you do. So, you know, they’ve got a fantastic sense of humor. So, you know, that’s a common thing, that can disguise a lot of the you can overdo that sort of thing, but I think it’s got a fairly dark sense of humor, so that’s fine.

Bill Gasiamis 53:37
Very United Kingdom, isn’t it? It’s very common in that I think part of the world.

Dave Brooks 53:42
I think so, yeah, I think so. I know, having worked in America for a bit for a company, I couldn’t understand British sense of humor, they could not understand sarcasm, and they can’t understand flippancy if you’re flippant about something, they don’t understand well, not all people, but a lot of people in the workplace don’t get they think that if you’re being flippant, you’re not serious about what you’re doing, and there’s a group of us were working now on and off for about a year.

Dave Brooks 54:15
We’re working backwards and boys in various places, and we used to play on that because we thought it’s hilarious.

Bill Gasiamis 54:24
Because you’re so laissez faire about something.

Dave Brooks 54:27
Yeah, well, or just saying something like stupid and trivial or childish, or something like that, and they look at you like you’re completely mad. Anyway, yeah, I think one of the early things I said to you, and when I made originally made contact, was that I think having a sense of humor is is a good scent as a good portion of of recovering because, you know, even like silly situations, like in the people that you’re in the. Bed next to a hospital, there’s just some odd stuff going on.

Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery Coping Mechanisms and Reflections

Dave Brooks 55:04
You know, I used to regularly when some people came into hospital, because I was all wired up because, my blood pressure, don’t know about you, my blood pressure was up at like, 250 over something, at one point, massively high. So I was all wired up for probably most of the time I was in there. But I used to love when people come in and they just sort of like, you know, you sit there, you got all this stuff that I just thought, like, if you go to the toilet, you have to take it off. But I just don’t, like, grab it, rip it off and go.

Dave Brooks 55:38
I had this idea that what I was going to do, but a mother in law, she had a walking frame at one point, and if people came around to the house after they knew it was to go to the door, and with the walking frame, they open the door and then you go, it’s a miracle I can walk. But I was told that probably wasn’t a good idea. But, you know, I think it’s it freaks some people out.

Bill Gasiamis 56:08
I think you gotta laugh about it. I know that it’s harder for some people to laugh about the version of their particular stroke. You have to find the humor, because it is how it breaks those circuits of crappiness that’s going on, all the terrible things that are happening, like you have to be able to find somewhere to laugh and give yourself a bit of relief, a bit of relief from all of the stuff that you’re dealing with that you’re not trained to deal with, that you don’t have the skills to deal with.

Dave Brooks 56:34
You’d never expect to you never expecting it, that’s the thing you know is.

Bill Gasiamis 56:39
I know, and there’s people that go through a lot of pain after stroke, you know, physical pain and all that type of thing. And I get it, I just feel like there is no place for ‘There’s nothing funny about stroke. That comment, I don’t think is helpful to any human being, like, there has to be something funny even about the worst version of the stroke, like there just has to be so that you can get a little bit of reliefs, get some endorphins into your body, and make yourself feel better, even if it’s for 10 seconds or 15 seconds.

Dave Brooks 57:19
I would always argue there’s pretty much humor in anything, sometimes, you may not feel like that, but I think it’s, you know, it’s just bizarre situations. You think this is just ridiculous, you know? But I think it’s, it is about having a sense of humor. Is about being positive, and it’s not big, not not freaking out. But there’s, there’s such easy things to say.

Bill Gasiamis 57:46
Correct.

Dave Brooks 57:47
You know, and I don’t know whether that’s some, you know, just saying that is not enough. No, I don’t think I couldn’t advise people who’ve really had a stroke. Because I say ‘Well, just, you know, have a sense of humor, you know, deal with everything in little bits and just be positive. But it’s like saying to somebody who’s got depression, oh, come on, snap out of it doesn’t work, you know, you have to have a different approach. Yeah, that’s how it works to work.

Bill Gasiamis 58:19
And you drove again, and you’ve got an income still, and you don’t have to worry about the house being taken by the bank, and you haven’t got a medical a list of medical bills. Like, yeah, it’s a completely different, subjective experience that each individual has. Like, each stroke is different and affects people differently, it’s same.

Dave Brooks 58:39
Yeah, in the UK, things have got worse, but haven’t, we don’t have to pay for medical treatment. Well, we do, but we pay, it comes out with.

Bill Gasiamis 58:50
In a way that happens in America, which is really dramatic for some people.

Dave Brooks 58:55
I mean, it’s not perfect here, no.

Bill Gasiamis 58:57
We haven’t got back to how long it took you to get back to driving and all that other stuff.

Dave Brooks 59:07
So, I was driving within two months of coming out hospital. So that would have been, you know, two and a half to to to about three months.

Bill Gasiamis 59:16
Was that a retest?

Dave Brooks 59:19
No, no. Didn’t have to do it. No, you just, you just had to let them know. That was all I had to do. There’s no, I think there are certain medical conditions where you have to have a retest. If I’m honest, if I was having to do a retest, I’ll be thinking.

Bill Gasiamis 59:40
Because you want to know you were a driver, and you want to know where you’re at.

Dave Brooks 59:45
Yeah, exactly, I’m quite happy, if they bring in so you have to retest when you’re 75 or 80, I’ll be thinking, Yeah, that’s a good idea. But so I was back working again. I wasn’t working particularly hard. I was working on a side project as well, which I sort of had to it was a startup thing, I was developing an app for them, and I didn’t really, I sort of got bored with it. So it was actually worked out quite well, but there was some pressure being put on me to carry on. When are you going to be back? When you going to be back? When you give me back?

Dave Brooks 1:00:21
I said ‘Well, I don’t know, you know. And eventually I just backed away from that. I’m still, you know what? In fact, I’m still working with some of those same people on some stuff I’m doing at the moment. But I sort of enjoy work. I don’t consider work-work. Work, for me, is a paid hobby, and I only do things I’m interested in. I’ve only ever done that, I’ve been lucky enough that it’s been reasonably well paid.

Dave Brooks 1:00:50
You know, if something’s not working, I’m not I don’t think anything of just thinking, No, that’s it quitting. I’m not doing that. I only can do this. But it’s, I think, you know, that’s possibly just my same part of my character that keeps me driving forward.

Bill Gasiamis 1:01:11
Yeah, the ‘Not reflecting backwards, well, obviously you’re aware of the past, the things that have you’ve been through, the family’s been through, you’ve gone through the other people you know been through. What you’re saying is you don’t dwell on those.

Dave Brooks 1:01:31
That’s exactly.

Bill Gasiamis 1:01:32
And it sounds like you don’t do a lot of, Why me, kind of questioning, which is never helpful other other than why me? What’s the purpose of this stroke? If you’re doing that, I think that’s helpful. Like, what’s the point? Why did it happen to me? What can I how can I transform this maybe, but you’re not dwelling on the negative side of life.

Dave Brooks 1:01:55
No, I never have, it’s always, I’m pretty positive about things, but I think, you know, that’s easy to say. It’s easy for me to say, and do you know it’s not, it’s not all the time, yeah, but I think that’s quite a difficult thing. I’m not stupid enough to think that could work for everybody. You know, some people say.

Bill Gasiamis 1:02:15
Yeah and I don’t say that for that reason. What I like doing, is kind of just demonstrating the difference in people and, and, and what that might do is that might somebody make somebody curious about, why does Dave do life like that? And I wonder if I could do life like that, and what would be the benefits of doing life like that, and how might that version, in some particular situations, help me.

Bill Gasiamis 1:02:38
That’s kind of like what the podcast is about, it’s about to show the differences 320 episodes so far, like it’s about showing all the different versions of variations, so that people can cherry pick what they want out of a conversation and go, I like what they’ve said. I’m going to take that one thing out of the whole interview.

Dave Brooks 1:02:58
When I was, somebody mentioned your podcast. I thought I’d just go and have a quick look. And there I was saying ‘Oh, that’s quite interesting. Because, there was a few things about Cerebella stroke. There’s obviously some people who are a little bit more serious about things, that’s fine, but I think it’s, I think not dwelling on the past, but learning from the past is a good thing.

Dave Brooks 1:03:29
And because if you just think, like, say ‘Why me? Why did I get this thing? You go around, I think you’re rather than a bloody spiral backwards, you know, it’s that’s just the way I deal with things.

Bill Gasiamis 1:03:43
I quite like that version that’s similar to me, although, you know, I found myself in the trap every so often when things were really bad, physically and mentally, and when my cognition wasn’t the best, I really found myself in the hole and kind of ‘Oh my gosh. Like, I don’t know, what do I do here? I’ve never been here before. How do I handle this? And then it’s like ‘Okay, let’s find the solution. Let’s try and handle it, and let’s get out of it, if we can, and as quickly as possible, counseling, for me, was huge, and for me, counseling was more about that mental gymnastics.

Bill Gasiamis 1:04:22
It’s all about kind of getting, getting my my ideas and my thoughts tested by somebody else, you know, like you, you ‘Oh, yeah, I’ll go for that drive if they want to test my driving. I’m the same ‘Oh, I’ll go for that counseling session so I can have my thoughts and my ideas tested by somebody else, and then I can get a different perspective and a different approach, and then I can take that with me and do something about it or not.

Bill Gasiamis 1:04:56
That’s kind of what was for me that worked. And this is what. Every you said, this is, you know, potentially cathartic for you. This is what every session is for me, this is like a cheap counseling session, and everyone who attends.

Dave Brooks 1:05:11
I’ll send you the bill.

Bill Gasiamis 1:05:12
Yeah, he’s doing me a service they just don’t know about, you know.

Dave Brooks 1:05:16
So the counseling you have, was that something that you was sort of part of some care package, or was it something that you realized you had to sort out for yourself?

Bill Gasiamis 1:05:29
I’m quite intellectual, and I always have been when I was a little kid, when I was teenager, I was always the person that people came to for problem solving, and I didn’t realize that that was a gift that I had personally, and that it was working for other people, and they found the need to ask me questions about how they should go about resolving a potentially challenging situation. And it wasn’t advice like ‘Do this, do that. It was more about like having a conversation. You know what? It was, a Socratic conversation I used to have with people.

Bill Gasiamis 1:06:00
But when you’re 15 and you’ve got no idea what the hell is Socratic conversation is, you find yourself in weird places of not being understood, and people kind of wondering, who is this weirdo? Why is he among us? And I felt like always out of I felt like I was always the the odd one out in groups of people anywhere. And it was more it wasn’t about the fact that I didn’t I got along with everybody because I was quite bubbly and all that kind of stuff, and I could park my Socratic states often enough so that I could just get along with people.

Bill Gasiamis 1:06:39
But it always bugged me as to why I was having conversation with with people, and then they would sometimes gloss over and just kind of fade away and stop the conversation because I was taking it somewhere where they weren’t and I didn’t realize. So I went to counseling when I was 25, and at 25 I haven’t stopped, and it’s actually, is literally now that we’ve kind of had this conversation together, it is to test my thinking and my ideas and the way I go about my life.

Bill Gasiamis 1:07:14
So that I’m not the only one thinking these things and think I’m right all the time or wrong all the time, and I just love it. It’s a completely different version of counseling.

Dave Brooks 1:07:26
Interesting, counseling is something that I would never consider, because I think I have a way of a sec. I don’t, I do internalize it, but it’s almost like I’m, I’m solving those problems. You know ‘This is bad, this is good, this is bad, this is good. I can do that, that’s fine-that’s fine. I don’t think about it, you know, all don’t think about much of the time. I’m pretty shallow. But you know,I’ve always because my my brain is occupied by something, whether it’s building drones or writing software or, whatever it is I have something positive is something.

Dave Brooks 1:07:26
I guess it’s something that I latch on to, that I do, and that’s I use talking about when you’re 14 and 15, I didn’t, you know, like most people At age you hang around with a load of people. There was nobody that I was really friends with, and they’re people I’ve never kept in but I would just bumble along and not think about things too much, which is sort of quite a shallow way of thinking, but it’s actually quite a good way of viewing.

Dave Brooks 1:08:37
Moving on, you’re not concerning yourself with too much sort of crap that’s around you thinking ‘Oh, I can actually go and paint that tank on my motorbike when I get home. You know, it’s something positive.

Bill Gasiamis 1:08:50
It’s local thinking, it’s a good I think an analogy is like it’s local thinking instead of global thinking, right? And most people are dealing with now being inundated with information from all around the planet on a mobile phone, and instead of understanding the issues that are happening in your town, in your suburb, in your city you’re dealing with, and distracted by issues that are happening far, far, far, far away that you have no positive influence over and that is kind of what you’re describing.

Bill Gasiamis 1:09:23
You’re describing locally, addressing and assessing the things that you need to get through your day in a, you know, in a very calm, collected way, solving problems, helping out where you need to help out, fixing the things that need to be fixed, and then moving on to the next part of your day. And that’s kind of me. My method of doing that is your method is being occupied with a task. My method of doing that is communicating, it is talking it out, and tasks I can’t when I’m having a bad emotional or psychological.

Bill Gasiamis 1:09:23
Google response to something, I cannot do a task if my life depended on it. It doesn’t matter what the task is, I just can’t switch that part off to do something to take me out of that space where I’m where I have to cognitively overcome the situation, whatever it is, once I cognitively overcome it, no matter how dramatic it is, and the world could be falling down around me, I’m fine. I can get on with life, because I’ve grappled with it cognitively.

Dave Brooks 1:10:39
So I think I’m sort of a little bit opposite to you, because I think I can’t remember who somebody once said about the amount of news that’s coming in. Somebody once said something like, you can’t know everything, and I think there’s you’ve got to be aware of what’s going on in the world around you, but I sort of think you know if I am feeling bad or trying to work out something, what I like to have to do is something that I’m doing that I’m thinking about.

Dave Brooks 1:11:08
You know, when you’re sort of lying in bed at night, drifting off to sleep, you know, you might be interested in fixing up motorbikes, fixing cars, or even planning on what you’re going to do in the garden or something boring like that, but you’re dreaming, you’re thinking something through, you’re solving a problem. You’re being a maker, which is, you know, maker is a big word these days. People think of it as physically making things, but writing software’s being a maker, doing the gardens, being a maker.

Dave Brooks 1:11:34
And it’s about sort of having some you set yourself a goal, like a project that you’re doing, and that’s thinking, well, how can I get that bit, that bit done? Now, I know I tend to, like, fall into that, and I know that Barbara wall, she’s, you know, when I’m really thinking about stuff, and I’m in that zone, thinking about things, you know, I do get scaling comments about you, just you like a zombie again. It’s because that sort of used to be a problem years ago.

Bill Gasiamis 1:12:17
Yeah, the outwardly appearance doesn’t look like somebody who is perhaps concerned or solving or whatever you you express things physically differently than quote, unquote, other people who look concerned about something they’re trying to overcome or so.

Dave Brooks 1:12:39
Well sometimes I, you know, you know I am like, I can go on to autopilot and respond to somebody talking to me, yeah, but my brain is whizzing away thinking about some other thing, which I think is more important, because I haven’t worked out how to solve this particular problem. But counseling is something I don’t think necessarily I would benefit from, but yeah, occasionally I spoke to people, though.

Bill Gasiamis 1:13:10
Yeah a lot of people say that, and I get it too, right? Because sometimes the sub sessions is like, what the hell was I doing here that session? So I set the parameters very differently when I went to counseling, I didn’t go there with a diagnosis, and I didn’t go there to receive a diagnosis, or to get a diagnosis, or be taught to be told you’re experiencing this, you have this, you have that. I went there as a learning experience, you’re a counselor, you’re older and wiser than me, so I was 25 My counselor was probably in their late 50s when I met her.

Bill Gasiamis 1:13:44
And I’m going to come here and I’m going to tell you my dumb shit, and you’re going to tell me whether I’m right or wrong, and I’m going to learn from you. I’m going to ask you questions, like ‘Why do people because I used to have this thing, people would come up to me just start like, you know, handling me like touching me. And I used to have people who I labeled like touchy feely. They’re very touchy feely, and I don’t know why I’m attracting them, but they’ll come up to me, I’ve never met it before, and they’ll start touching me and hugging me and doing shit.

Bill Gasiamis 1:14:14
And I’m like ‘Why is this happening to me? And I would go and ask questions, not about me specifically at that moment, but I would ask questions about, why would somebody have the ability the confidence to come and do that to me when they don’t know me, etc? And I would perhaps get a hypothesis on the thinking of that person. And then I would, I might go to my counselor and ask questions like, Why does my particular family member behave like that? And then she might give me a hypothesis on that, and that might be, well, that they were born before you.

Bill Gasiamis 1:14:54
They were a single child they had, and she would explain just some things that wouldn’t justify their behavior, but might give it a little bit of background, so that my response then was instead of a reaction, it was a response from knowledge, rather than a reaction from my head going, This guy’s a complete idiot. I’ve got to punch him in the head, and then it enabled me to deal with people differently and give them grace for who they were, rather than get offended for how they behaved.

Dave Brooks 1:15:33
Yeah, I tend to, quite quickly, distance myself from when I was younger. I couldn’t, I wasn’t mature enough to even even verbalize it. But if my stomach told me that there’s something not quite right about this person, I just keep away. You know, it’s just, I’ll go off and do something else. Because when you get a bit older, you’re able to, especially when you’re in business and you’re working with people.

Dave Brooks 1:16:07
Because sometimes, to be professional, you can be work with somebody, I have this thing that you can work with people that you like and are really good. You can work with people that you don’t like and are really good, and you can work with people you don’t like and are terrible, whether they work for you or whether you work for them, and you have to develop a strategy on how you deal with that, because sometimes you can’t just run away.

Dave Brooks 1:16:38
You can’t just live, you know, for whatever, because they might be paying you lots of money or something, so, you know. And when you’re younger, you don’t have, they sort of like, you know, you don’t have the hours of knowing correct how to deal with that. And then you make lots of mistakes along the way. But my default action is ‘No, there’s something you know, doesn’t. It’s not particularly male or female, you know.

Dave Brooks 1:17:06
It’s sort of like you’re thinking, I don’t. It’s something about this, something about this aura here, or something, whatever it is that I don’t quite like, I won’t explore it, I won’t try and solve it, unless I have to, I’m going to walk away.

Bill Gasiamis 1:17:23
I’m out of here, that’s more me. Now, at the beginning, it was my personal life was influencing and bothering my work life, because I was seeing those behaviors in work colleagues and becoming overly confrontational, and I don’t mind the confrontation that doesn’t always go down well, and it’s like trying to trans, trying to trying to occupy both worlds without being a little kid who’s 14 when I meant to be an adult who’s 25 like you know, was trying to grow up in that space.

Bill Gasiamis 1:18:07
So I had my the parameters on on counseling were very were set so that I could walk away a more intelligent person and have more ways to solve the same problems that you solve in the way that you solve them.

Dave Brooks 1:18:25
And I guess when you come across those situations again, you know you’ve got a better understanding of why that is. See, I don’t really want to know why, I think you know, it’s interesting. It’s interesting this conversation, the thing I find I do a lot, which I don’t know whether is clever or just completely childish, in a situation where you can’t just run away, I spend a lot of my time working out how I can irritate this person without them realizing that I’m that I’m doing it deliberately.

Dave Brooks 1:19:00
When you hit on it, you’re thinking, yeah, that’s good, tiny things sometimes, but and then it’s sort of, I think it’s almost like a schoolboy behavior. I think, you know, you have to, you have to have mechanisms to deal with just idiots, because they can make a lot. It doesn’t matter, I say it doesn’t matter whether you work for them or whether they work for you. You know you can be in a professional situation, but, yeah, I think that’s possibly my character, which has given me the ammunition to deal with a situation that wasn’t expecting.

Dave Brooks 1:19:42
So I thought something, I say, this is the first time I’ve really talked about it with somebody in any sort of depth, other than the silly things that happened whilst I was in hospital, when I was walking and planning, I was going to sort of wind people up when they come to the door or anything like that.

Reflecting on Mortality and Career Goals

Bill Gasiamis 1:19:58
Yeah, relationships get tested during stroke, all kinds of relationships, personal, work ones, etc. And you there’s a lot of stroke survivors who will go, I am not putting up with this anymore. I’ve got too many other things to be dealing with and overcome, and they just pause relationships. They cut relationships off that weren’t working, that they were just being pleasant about or nice about and they just move on.

Dave Brooks 1:20:22
I think when you have touched or been in close to touching your own mortality, you think about things slightly differently. I try not to, because I think I still think I’m going to live forever. But I know I’m not, you know, I’m thinking, how many more years could I be writing software and developing apps and flying drones? I’m thinking, maybe 10-15, years. Well, don’t you know? Well, I’ll be writing software and I’m 80, thinking now, that’s a challenge.

Bill Gasiamis 1:20:30
Yeah, why not?

Dave Brooks 1:20:39
But yeah, well, I think that’s, it’s a goal, but I think it’s not something I’m going to stick to, but I think it’s something where, you know, you sort of, I’m not one for making, you know, making lists of, you know, these are the things I’m going to be doing. Because the way that I think I deal with life is, somebody once explained it to me about how, why, I was sort of like got interested in different things.

Dave Brooks 1:21:25
He said ‘Dave, you’re a bit like a a bloke that’s sort of like bumbling around in a dark room and you can’t see anything, and you sort of go ‘Oh, this feels What’s this over here? This feels quite nice ‘Oh, what’s this over here? Oh, that feels quite nice. And it’s sort of way of just sort of thinking, just moving between things that you find interesting for some reason, you know. And you can never quantify what that reason is, whether it’s work, whether it’s you know. So I like to describe my work as a paid hobby.

Dave Brooks 1:22:02
And I was talking to somebody years ago at a at a wedding, and I was just sort of, I can’t always talk to somebody that I knew and that there’s a woman over the other side of the table says ‘Oh, sorry, I couldn’t help but overhearing. So I think that’s a really good way of dealing with your you know, why do you stick with a job that you hate and people that you don’t like? There’s no reason why you have to stay there. If you have the confidence that you can do something, whatever that is, or learn how to do something, go off and do it.

Dave Brooks 1:22:35
You know you might be well paid, but sometimes you know they’re just golden handcuffs. You know you have to, you know you have to find a way to earn enough money to live. I mean, I’m fortunate, I don’t have a mortgage or anything like that. So, you know, but I could still, you can. We can all do with more money. But I think you know you have to do the things that that satisfy you, for some reason, yeah, particularly people having worked at organizations like the BBC.

Dave Brooks 1:23:04
Where they have final salary pensions, and it’s all like this dick waving contest about how many years service they’ve got. So you know, how much they will get when they retire, and I’m thinking they’ll probably drop dead within a year. What’s the point? You know, just go and do the things that you enjoy.

Bill Gasiamis 1:23:27
I believe in that too. I love that as we wrap up, because I’m really enjoying this, but that’s right, we will need to wrap it up at some stage. But as we do wrap up, let’s talk about the last three questions that I ask everybody, which is, what’s the hardest thing about stroke for you.

Dave Brooks 1:23:54
Probably dealing with how my family are impacted by it children, you don’t want to worry about the same thing, you know, with my wife, Barbara, but because I always felt whatever the situation was, I’ll be able to find a solution, to be able to do something. But it’s how it freaks the people that are close to me. I don’t have a big circle of friends, you know, I’m sort of a bit of a bit of a lone wolf in a way. I think it’s close family that is, they’re the ones that are impacted by, I think, more than I was, I’m going through.

Bill Gasiamis 1:24:37
The fear or maybe losing you.

Dave Brooks 1:24:41
Exactly, yeah, it’s not about, you know, it’s because we’re reasonably close family. Well, very close family, reasonably is the wrong word. But you know, it’s, we’re all fairly, sort of easy going. So when something like this happens, it’s, especially after I was thinking for the kids, I remember, my daughter wrote me up, she said ‘I don’t know what to say, I don’t know what to say. I said ‘Well, I’ll be alright, be fine, you know, in some shape or form, I’ll be alright.

Dave Brooks 1:25:16
You know, I won’t be if I’ve been squished against the, you know, under articulated truck or something. But with this, this is fine, you know, there’ll be some some way through it. So that was difficult to deal with. I was worried more about that than anything else, if I’m honest.

Bill Gasiamis 1:25:34
What has stroke taught you?

Dave Brooks 1:25:39
An interesting one, I’d slightly switch it round to something I touched on earlier, which is very occasionally, I thought about, how would I react if I had some serious illness, and I reacted in the way that I was happy with. So what I have learned is that what I had sort of not planned but vaguely thought about in the past was the way I behaved, you know, in a positive way, and not not let it impact me. So I think I don’t think my character has changed, particularly. I think I one thing I have learned is that I don’t want to live too far from a hospital.

Bill Gasiamis 1:26:46
Yeah, fair enough.

Dave Brooks 1:26:47
I used to my both of my brothers live in the middle of nowhere, and I always thought I want to live in the middle of nowhere. Barbara, no and but now we, you know, when we thought maybe about moving or something like that. I want to be somewhere close to a hospital, preferably a university hospital, that’s not more than half an hour away. Because, yeah, and I would imagine it’s going to be difficult in Australia, because I speak a country.

Bill Gasiamis 1:27:17
Well, it is if you’re in the middle of the country, if you’re living in like the outback ‘Oh my gosh. I’m actually, I was at a Stroke Conference last weekend, and they’re talking about five hours to hospital for somebody who has a stroke in the middle of the Northern Territory.

Dave Brooks 1:27:37
That’s a big proper if that’s a big proper bleed. You know that’s you’re not going to survive that.

Lessons Learned From Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery and Supportive Community

Bill Gasiamis 1:27:44
That’s terrible and that they’re one of the things that the challenge about is the people who live there typically are annoyed with the fact that takes five hours to get to a hospital, right? And that’s fair enough. And then the government, from a government’s perspective, the government would say ‘Well, there’s only 100,000 people living in there, we can’t have a hospital the size of the one in Melbourne that services 5 million people, and it can’t have all the machines and all the buttons that go ping like they just can’t do that. And that’s the challenge that people face.

Bill Gasiamis 1:28:20
But I agree with you, I am very happy that I was able to drive to at least in my like where I live, there’s a hospital five minutes away, and then the central business district where I was working, when the second bleed when the third bleed happened, I was probably a kilometer from the hospital. So I reckon that’s a very good thing to aim for, to be close to hospital.

Dave Brooks 1:28:48
Yeah, and I think that’s something you own that only really crosses your mind when you’ve like, say you’ve touched your mortality. You know it’s just been practical.

Bill Gasiamis 1:29:03
Practical, yeah, I like it.

Dave Brooks 1:29:05
Which is, you know, but it saves your life.

Bill Gasiamis 1:29:11
Very good outcome, and then I would like to know there’s other people listening. They’re going through our journey, there might be at a different stage of it, something more dramatic, less whatever the stroke survivors. What would you like to say to them?

Dave Brooks 1:29:32
Sort of all the things that I’ve said previously, which are easy to say, and I found I could deal with them that way, but I can well imagine, for other people, it’s difficult, you know, the sense of humor thing is a good thing, being positive and just dealing with everything, just, you know, shelve the stuff. You can’t solve everything all in one go, but what you can do is.

Dave Brooks 1:30:00
Like, as you said, you deal with the serious stuff ‘Will I be able to do that? Will I be able to do that? And sort of, like, not forgetting about it, you know, you can’t just bury it. But I think, you know, just deal with it as positively as you can. And I think, you know, having, having the family around is a big thing. You know, I really feel for people that have had strokes and they’re maybe in off the street or something like that, which is or for whatever reason, they don’t have close family.

Bill Gasiamis 1:30:33
You need to build a community for sure. You need to have friends or family, someone that you can call on, you know, receive a plate of food, of from or lend an ear. You know, have somebody lend an ear to you like you need to create a supportive community around you. If you haven’t got one, that’s probably a priority.

Dave Brooks 1:30:54
So, I’ve never really talked about this with a wife, yeah, or anybody, because it’s not, I didn’t, it’s not a not. I didn’t see the point. But it didn’t, sort of, we’ve touched on sort of things, of course, but I think it’s, you know, that’s my nature. But I think for other people, who like to talk about things, if that’s the thing that solves it or helps them deal with those problems, that type of problem, then that’s good. You know, you’ve got to go with what works for you, fundamentally.

Cerebellar Hemorrhage Recovery Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Bill Gasiamis 1:31:32
Dave Brooks, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Dave Brooks 1:31:36
It’s been like, I say, it’s been very cathartic, because it’s not something I’ve particularly thought about, so it’s actually been, I think, a really good session. It’s fantastic to meet you and see that you’re doing so well. The podcast is doing very well as well. And it’s, you know, I’d imagine in Australia, where you’re doing sort of live events and those sorts of things that would imagine, these also, like counseling, because you’re speaking to so many people.

Bill Gasiamis 1:32:07
Indeed, I’m a counseling aficionado, what can I say, I just go and get it anywhere I can, wherever I can, but thank you, mate. I really appreciate it.

Dave Brooks 1:32:22
It’s been fantastic, and yeah, great to meet you.

Bill Gasiamis 1:32:27
Well, that brings us to the end of another episode. Dave’s journey is a testament to the power of humor and resilience and the importance of taking things one step at a time, his ability to stay grounded and focused on what he can do rather than what he can’t is truly inspiring. If this episode has helped you in any way, or if the podcast has been a source of support for your recovery journey, please consider supporting us at Patreon by going to patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke.

Bill Gasiamis 1:33:01
Your support allows us to keep sharing stories like Dave’s with stroke survivors and caregivers worldwide, making a real difference. Thank you to everyone who has left a review on iTunes or Spotify your feedback, helps others find the show and builds a community of encouragement and strength. If you haven’t yet, please consider leaving a five star review or sharing your thoughts in the comments on the YouTube channel, it truly means a lot. Thank you for joining me today, and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.

Intro 1:33:35
Importantly, we present many podcasts designed to give you an insight and understanding into the experiences of other individuals. Opinions and treatment protocols discussed during any podcast are the individuals own experience, and we do not necessarily share the same opinion, nor do we recommend any treatment protocol. Discussed all content on this website and any linked blog, podcast or video material controlled this website or content is created and produced for informational purposes only, and is largely based on the personal experience of Bill Gasiamis.

Intro 1:34:05
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Intro 1:34:30
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Intro 1:34:56
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