Disagreements in 2020 have been on the rise, especially with the COVID crisis and world events that polarize communities everywhere. How can we be kind and still disagree?
05:42 Dealing with our disagreements
17:39 Taking conversations too personally
23:37 Why so annoying?
29:48 It’s not about being bad or good
36:05 Using the opportunity to become a better person
41:16 Where the disagreement began
49:38 We all want the same thing
54:49 Fear of uncertainty
It’s just about me trying to express myself and have a conversation, which I miss the most at the moment I missed that more than anything because I can’t meet with people. And I can only have this conversation with my wife so many times because she’s amazing.
She’s probably sick of hearing me, you know, and she wants respite she doesn’t want to hear from me. Though kindness is one of my core values and for me to feel like I’m not being kind in a conversation really bothers me and concerns me.
And I know you’re kind, and I know, we, both have communities who genuinely are trying to be kind, because they wouldn’t be in our communities if they weren’t, now that doesn’t mean that your posts haven’t annoyed me the most. They have and I’m wondering why? Why is it that your post have annoyed me the most?
This is The Recovery After Stroke Podcast, with Bill Gasiamis, helping you navigate recovery after stroke.
Bill from recoveryafterstroke.com This is Episode 115. And today, I am a guest of longtime friend and hypnotherapist, Helen Mitas from Hypnofit. Helen first appeared on the recovery after stroke podcast in Episode 13, where we discussed ways that hypnotherapy might be able to help stroke survivors quit smoking.
In today’s conversation, we discuss something very topical, especially for people living in the state of Victoria, Australia, where we have been in COVID, lockdown in some way since March 2020.
And we have had a curfew imposed on 6 million people since August. And at the time of this recording, we are at September 22. Let’s just say that emotions are running high. And in this time, Helen and I have completely disagreed on almost everything.
And we learned that we have totally different views about the way the government is handling the lockdown. And this has played out on my personal Facebook page, where I make comments inviting conversation, and then get completely frustrated with the opposing view.
But I never become rude and personal. So when this happened again, I reached out to Helen to take the conversation away from the keyboard where things can get misconstrued and became curious about where we agree, and if there was a middle ground.
This is really an important conversation, especially with all the turbulence in the world right now. I hope our conversation will help you navigate these important yet challenging conversations.
Now before we get started, if you have ever wondered what else I can do to help you with stroke recovery, you should know that I have set up a few recovery after stroke support packages, where stroke survivors can come into a community while trying to get better on their own and get help from people who are already further along in the recovery timeline.
I too am out three times a stroke survivor and a brain surgery survivor. And I have built for you what I was missing when I was sent home from hospital in the hope that you don’t have to do stroke recovery as tough as I did.
Support packages give you access to a variety of tools 24 hours a day, seven days a week so that you can also work on other areas of stroke recovery, that you don’t get the chance to at physical therapy, or rehabilitation.
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You will get the first seven days free as well as a 30-day money-back guarantee no questions asked. As a bonus, you will get two face to face zoom support calls with myself to take your recovery to the next level. Go to recovery after stroke.com/support to sign up.
It won’t cost you anything for the first seven days. And you’ll get a full refund. If you are not happy after 30 days. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Now it’s on with the show.
I love your jazzy studio setup.
I’m trying to make it sound less like a garage and more like a professional recording.
It’s awesome. It looks good. I like what you put there on the walls and everything.
It was my little project one of my little projects on during lockdown it was to create some soundproofing I suppose or barriers or whatever and it’s made a massive difference to the way my podcasts sound. And I’m really loving it because the room feels different when you come in it’s quieter, it’s kind of like it’s a little bit of a cocoon. It feels really nice.
Awesome, you should see what I’ve got. I’ve got hanging a big doonah. And he just lives there now just lives right in front of me this big doonah because my video man taught me to do that.
And so it just actually, this doonah lives here in front of my desk, because it actually blocks out the sound coming from all around. Incredible we’re doing this. Yeah, honestly.
So before we continue, I’m just going to introduce what we’re doing. So whe didn’t plan this, first of all, this just came about I love things like that I just come about. So for those of you who are listening, Bill, and I have been friends for a long time.
Dealing with our disagreements
And, you know, I’ve always respected Bill’s opinion. And I think that, you know, he has felt the same about me. And it’s interesting that during this time, and during this year 2020, when we’re thrown with so many with a different reality, we find ourselves disagreeing with people that we are surprised that we disagree with them.
Because, you know, prior to 2020, this is the thing right prior to 2020. Usually, we could predict the why people would think and the people that were in our circle pretty much thought the way we thought, but 2020 has put that into disarray. And people who you thought were on the same wavelength as you are not necessarily seeing things the same way as you.
And so this played out this morning, and it’s been playing out all year for Bill and I. So we’ve been thinking we’ve actually been seeing two different sides of the same coin all the way through the year. You know, Bill’s been with his viewpoint. And you know, he’s been pretty vocal.
And I’ve been with my viewpoint. And today play that, again, we’re by Bill put up a post on his personal page, about the way that he saw a situation unravelling in Victoria and I had, of course, the opposite view to that. And rather than, you know, saying what a lot of people do around the place, you know, Bill, you know, to your credit, how you’ve always been respectful.
And what Bill then did was he private messaged me directly after and said, You know, I see that we don’t see things eye to eye, but I also respect your opinion, how about we have a talk about it. And I thought, wow, I thought, Let’s have a talk about it online.
Because I think this is the important thing here, what Bill just did, which is acknowledging, I see things different, he sees things differently. But you know, when we’re actually talking, as opposed to behind a keyboard, where you can write things that are not so respectful.
You know, as soon as I saw you, it connected to our friendship, you know, as opposed to a post, you know, where it’s not personal. And as soon as I saw bill just then it connected to the fact that I really like Bill, I really respect Bill’s amazing story. And, you know, it doesn’t matter that we have opposing views, I’m still the same person like I was in 2019.
And Bill’s the same person that he was in 2019. We just happen to see things in a different way. And so Bill said, How about we just talk about it? And I said, Why don’t we talk about it publicly? And he goes, I’m up for it. And let’s see, we haven’t had any kind of talk before that in all sort of played out online in the public arena. So tell me, Bill, what inspired you to actually reach out?
I think every post that I made this year, I think he’s actually made reaching out to the people who I’m friends on Facebook with because I don’t just have friends. I don’t make friends with people on Facebook and in real life that are not respectful or who I wouldn’t have a beer with, you know what I mean?
Those types of people. So over the last, particularly the last two months, but before that, when I was posting about this COVID situation and how our government in Victoria specifically handled it, I was trying to create a conversation so that I can express myself because before I used to do that, when we caught up with people on the weekend or for a coffee during lunch, and what I realized in those conversations was that my passion and my anger and my frustration was the same as it is in private or at a pub or wherever.
It’s never rudeness it’s never any of that. It’s never me shutting somebody down. But I noticed that I couldn’t express myself correctly in typing because I don’t have that face to face thing where people actually can see that you’re not having a go at them and that you don’t want to smash him and you’re not being rude, you’re just talking and you’re being passionate.
So after months of trying to get my head around, how am I going to converse with people about this topic, I thought you’re the perfect candidate, because I know you’d be up for it as well talking offline, or in any other way. And I thought what I wanted to do was I wanted to speak to you because you have the most opposite view from me.
And I know that your view comes from a really lovely place like mine does. And that got me kind of weirded out, like goes in. I know, she’s really thinking about things in an amazing way. And she has the completely opposite view for me, and I have a similar thought process myself, I want the best for people.
But what I have realized is that you tend to be on the allaying my concerns, which at the time, I feel like I don’t want you to do, but I’m glad to do it. And I tend to be on that pointing out the stupidity in my eyes of what a government has or hasn’t done. So you’re kind of coming in trying to smooth things over. And I’m trying to go “Did you say what these idiots did?”
And I was like, I think I needed to have this conversation face to face so that you can do that to me in person, even though I disagree with those idiots. You could calm me down and allay my concerns and just get me breathing or something. I don’t know what you know, like, that’s kind of why I reached out.
I really love that. I really love that you did that. And it shows little character. You know, it really shows character, in that we were both disagreeing online about what our governments, you know, the latest action is. And he reached out and said, let’s talk about it.
And I think that, when you did that, I really thought it was important that I put this online, and I’m going to take this video, and I’m going to put this as a newsletter, I’m gonna send it to my database. Because I think this is a very important message. And the message is, I don’t have to convince Bill of anything, actually.
And bill doesn’t have to convince me of anything, because it’s his view. And who’s to say my view is right? Who’s to say his view is right? Who’s to say his view is wrong? Who’s to say my view is wrong? But when we get triggered, you know, because we are triggered, all of us are triggered, and especially this year, we’re triggered something is triggering us to respond in such a way, we want to prove the other person wrong. And we want to prove ourselves, right. But at the end of all this, what’s gonna matter is how we treat each other.
Yeah, I really hated the thought that perhaps how I was responding was making people feel uncomfortable. And some people did write in my posts, they wrote stuff, like, obviously, we disagree, and I will probably stop commenting on your post. And I was like, no, I don’t want you to stop commenting, because you disagree with me, I need to hear the opposite view, even though I don’t like it.
Because, believe it or not, I don’t think the sun shines out of my ass. I don’t think that I have all the answers. And I’m correct. I’m putting it out there so that maybe somebody can throw something my way that I can consider for a moment and go. I wonder if they have a point.
And I wonder if I bring that into my point of view, will that make it easier for me to get through this speed hump that I’ve come up to. And for me, that’s what they seem like, they seem like speed humps. And when I reach out in this way, by posting live, or posting on Facebook, it’s like, I’m looking for people to help me over the speed hump.
And, and I’m not happy about the speed hump being there, but maybe they’ll help me over it, which means I don’t want to discourage them from coming to help me. I just want to tell them that I’m at a speed hump and I’m struggling to get over it. And this is what I feel and think.
And hopefully, your response is going to make me feel or think differently. And I’m not getting mad at anyone who has a different viewpoint. Even though it might seem like that in writing because I don’t have the skills to clearly portray my fullest, deepest emotions and desires and feelings in writing.
Exactly. I mean, emojis help us. Thank God, you know, like, if it wasn’t for emojis this year, you know, like, I would be misunderstood everywhere. You know, thank God, you could do that (tongue out) like, I still like you kind of thing because if it wasn’t for that it would be even worse, but you know, you’re not typical Bill because most people are not putting their opinion so that somebody else can bring another opinion. Most people are putting their opinion so that they can feel supported in their opinion.
Yeah. I’ve got to say though, it does help when you feel supported because that means that you’re not completely crazy. There’s some other people that think like you. And that’s cool, right that people think like you as well. That’s also cool. But it’s definitely not enough for me.
Because if 20 of us are thinking in the way that I’m thinking, and we’re all frustrated to heck, well, I don’t see that being is completely good. I just see it as creating more frustration to beyond heck. So it’s kind of like, alright, how do we all relate to each other and then find another path forward?
Because when I get to that speed, hump, I feel stuck. And what I would rather feel is like there’s still a path forward, because there are infinite ways to get beyond an obstacle. And I’m only looking at one way. And I want to be reminded what might be another way?
Yeah, and of course, and we’re all making assumptions based on our own experience. So for instance, I’ll give you the back end story to you know, my reaction to your post was that, you know, I had a friend call me a few days ago, and she’s, you know, she started basically the same sort of stuff that you’ve been saying all about, you know, heavy handed, you know, the numbers are down, they’re still not doing and he just wants to control.
And I said, Chris, this is my friend, Chris. And I said to her, haven’t you even listened to one, you know, full briefing of the premieres given? Because I’ve listened to every day to the full briefing. It sounds like you haven’t, because you haven’t got the information you have?
She says, no, I haven’t, you know, and fair enough. She works, she’s still one of the ones that does go into an office. And so you know, and she’s got a child and all the rest of it. She says Helen, you’re the only one that has given me the opposite view. No one else has given me that view.
But I said to her, how many of your friends have actually listened to the briefing? And so then you put a post up today with the same sort of ilk? And so then I say, Have you ever listened to the briefing Bill up, you know, and that reaction is not really about Bill, it’s about the fact that I’ve just had a conversation with Chris, she’s just admitted, she’s never listened to a briefing, right?
And you may have, but what we’re doing is we are, as humans, what we do is we gather all the information that’s not even relevant to the moment and we bring it to the moment. So the information that I’ve got is the people I’m talking to, don’t even listen to the briefings.
And they come up with these conclusions based on media reports. And therefore you say something similar, and then I base my preconception on what you’re saying. And I’m putting you in that category of people that are not listening to briefings, and then you could probably think, well, in fact, I do listen to briefings.
Taking conversations too personally
You’re just assuming I don’t. And that’s true. And this is what happens, right, is that we’re just assuming, based on not just the conversation happening at the time, but based on a whole experience of other conversations with other people. And then people feel personally attacked, because we’re making it personal.
And so you see it play out all over the world. And it’s hard, it’s really hard, not to make assumptions, not to want people just think the way you think, you know, you want people to see the way you see it, but that’s never gonna happen, it’s never gonna happen.
It’s impossible, because you’ve had, you know, 100 different conversations to me, you’ve seen different things that I’ve seen, you have a different experience than I’ve had, you know, it could be that, and I’m not saying this is the case at all. But it could be that you have a distrust of authority, because of things that have happened in your life, it could be that I have a complete trust in authority because of things that didn’t happen in my life.
And that they’ve come, you know, when I needed authority, they were there to back me up when you needed authority, they weren’t. And so we come together with this, you distrust authority. And therefore you draw this conclusion, I trust them, and therefore I back them.
And then it seems like we’re actually at loggerheads, when really, you know, I think the most important thing that I want the message to be about as hard as it is, because it is hard, it is hard navigating these times, especially, you know, people don’t know, how it actually feels like to be in the situation that we’re in, you know, and so it is hard.
But to be kind. To Be kind, irrespective of your beliefs. And I just think that by you reaching out to me today, when I publicly went against what you said, you know, on your post, so this is your page, and then you reach out to me and say, how about we just talk about it to me, it just like it’s you know, I’ve always respected you but now like, respect you through the roof, because it’s like that is character.
So your community is a community that helps people the hypnotherapists community. It’s amazing, right? I’ve interacted with a lot of people from your community, because I’m part of it. Because you’re my coach, once upon a time I came to you to be my coach, because you’ve done things that I wished I could do, and I wanted to learn how you did it so I could do it.
So, you know, Steve has come onto the posts and responded, and Steve and I completely disagree. But again, I hope I didn’t annoy or make him feel that I was personally attacking him because Steve and I have never met in person.
So I don’t really know how he communicates. And that’s really difficult to navigate is you don’t have an understanding of how face to face people communicate. But if he’s in your community, I’m assuming that he’s a good guy. And he is somebody that wouldn’t be in your community if he wasn’t the kind of people that is good.
You know what I mean? Like, because you guys are communities based around helping people overcome drama and challenges and problems and move on in their lives and expand and grow right? My community is stroke survivors. They are people who are looking for somebody to help them get through the hardest time in their lives.
And I wouldn’t have a community if my stroke survivors who follow me didn’t feel supported and feel comfortable, and feel like I wasn’t kind. But that gets all blurred when you’re sitting behind a keyboard, and trying to communicate to people like Steve, who hasn’t ever met me, and I’ve never met him.
And I was really concerned that I would be doing that. And I always try to at the end of my posts, finished by saying, Hey, guys, thanks for the chat. Sorry, if we disagreed, or hopefully, I didn’t annoy anybody by being too personal or anything like that.
If you’ve had a stroke, and you’re in recovery, you’ll know what a scary and confusing time it can be, you’re likely to have a lot of questions going through your mind. Like now long will it take to recover? Will I actually recover? What things should I avoid in case I’ll make matters worse?
Doctors will explain things that obviously, you’ve never had a stroke before, you probably don’t know what questions to ask. If this is you, you may be missing out on doing things that could help speed up your recovery. If you’re finding yourself in that situation, stop worrying, and head to recoveryafterstroke.com where you can download a guide that will help you.
It’s called the seven questions to ask your doctor about your stroke. These seven questions are the ones Bill wished he’d asked when he was recovering from a stroke, they’ll not only help you better understand your condition, they’ll help you take a more active role in your recovery, head to the website. Now, recoveryafterstroke.com and download the guide. It’s free.
It’s just about may try to express myself and have a conversation, which I miss the most at the moment. I missed that more than anything, because I can’t meet with people. And I can only have this conversation with my wife, so many times because she’s amazing.
She’s probably sick of hearing me, you know, and she wants respite. She doesn’t want to hear from me. Though kindness, is one of my core values. And for me to feel like I’m not being kind in a conversation really bothers me and concerns me. So I know your client. And I know, we both have communities who genuinely are trying to be kind because they wouldn’t be in our communities, if they weren’t.
Why so annoying?
Now, that doesn’t mean that your posts haven’t annoyed me the most. They have, and it’s not. And I’m wondering why is it that your posts have annoyed me the most. And that is the lesson for me. It’s like, I know, Helen, I know how amazing she is. I know how kind she is, I know how super positive she is, I know what she does in the world, I know how helps people.
Why a posts from somebody that I value and respect so much so annoying? And that is where my lesson is. And I’ve been asking myself that for a couple of weeks now. And I don’t know that I’ve got the solution or the answer yet. But at some point, I think I’m going to come to terms with the learning that I get from that.
And I’ll be able to use that when I’m coaching stroke survivors, when I’m supporting my community, and when I’m putting things out there that other people are getting annoyed with. When I’m being kind, and I’m not being rude, but they’re responding in a negative way that’s going to make me better In my world you know?
Exactly. And what you just said then Bill is so like key, which is what you did. That is a strategy. So and that’s what I would teach you know, my people is you stepped outside yourself. And you looked at yourself and you went, why is this a trigger for me? Why is this a trigger for me?
What’s going on there, what? What is going on? Why is this a trigger? Why is this a trigger for me? And it’s exactly what I did. Because when I was feeling about a couple of months ago, I was feeling like I was judging people, like I could be very judgmental on their views.
And one of my core values, one of my highest core values is to be non judgmental. As a therapist, as a therapist, you know, if someone walks into a room, you know, if I’m judging them for whatever they’ve done, and I’ve seen clients who have done all types of abhorrent, which the community would deem is definitely abhorrent acts.
But if I see them in that lot, I can’t help them. So I don’t, I really, really don’t and I take the judgment away. And I pride myself in that. And then a couple of months ago, I saw myself judging. And, I was quite distressed at that, because I tried not to, but then I couldn’t help it.
And it’s almost like, then I started judging myself for judging. It’s like, what are you doing? Like, why are you behaving like this? Why are you saying those things, just because people disagree with you, of course, they’re going to disagree with you. So I had to then go outside myself and look at myself.
And by doing that, and having compassion to myself and saying, because I’m human, you know, as much as I’d like to believe that I’m be super, you know, light being, you know, I actually am human. And it’s okay to navigate during these extraordinary times, and to, but now that I’ve seen myself do it, and I don’t want to do that, I was able to step away from it.
It’s ugly isn’t it? When you’re judgmental, it’s ugly. And then, if you’re judging people and people are judging you, I mean, and it doesn’t feel good when you’re being judged. Well, man, you don’t want to be putting that out there to the person on the opposite side of the therapy, call it screen now or room or whatever.
And that is one of my biggest lessons is to pay attention to me, and why am I getting triggered? Why am I responding in this kind of way? And how can I not respond in that kind of way, because what it’s going to do is be better for me, in the long run, and in the short term, and it’s going to be better for that other person on the other side of the keyboard who is typing their response to me on Facebook.
And this is the only challenging part with these social medias is that very few people come offline and go, let’s get to the bottom of this, let’s work it out. Let’s understand it rather than stay in the negative cycle into the abyss, you know?
Exactly. And even worse, and what’s been happening is that people who have been close for a long time, even closer than us people who catch up on a regular basis, they all of a sudden, have had to disconnect and not talk to each other again, because it became so bad.
And that’s what this year has shown us, I think this year has shown us up in terms of what is really inside what is going on inside us and to see it and to be aware of it so that we can actually deal with it. So I think that all this is positive that we are becoming very aware of who we are.
I don’t disagree with you, because that I love what you said there about it’s showing us up. I mean, if ever there was a facade around somebody’s amazingness, it’s coming down now you have seen behind the curtain. And that wasn’t good for me when I kind of saw a little bit about that in me like at the beginning.
And I quickly addressed that so that it’s not a facade, this thing that people see on my podcast is not a facade, because imagine I’m going out to a community forever. And being this person and then the glitch in the matrix happens and all of a sudden this other Bill turns up, these people are gonna go, who are you? Like, why have we been listening to your crap for the last 110 episodes?
Why are we going to continue to listen to you all the good work that I’ve done since 2015 out the window. And it’s not about that it’s not who I truly am. But it is okay to experience that guy who I didn’t really like as well, because now I really know who I don’t like me to be, you know.
That we don’t say we don’t like a part of us. Because that is not healthy either. I think it’s important to acknowledge that that was something that we would never get in at the time and we did the best we could. But we don’t have to do that again. You know, we can learn, we can learn from that.
It’s not about being bad or good
But that part of us is not bad. Because it’s not about being bad or good. It’s just about that’s the best we could do at the time, you know, with what we had and just to really be compassionate because we can’t be compassionate towards other people unless we are compassionate first towards ourselves. We have to be it’s okay. You know, Bill just reacted like that, because that’s what Bill was going through at the time. You know, he was feeling frustrated, and he voiced his opinion.
Yeah, absolutely. And, look, it’s, I’m lucky that my online community is full of cool people. Even Gabe, who commented in one of the posts said, Bill you’re lucky, you’re surrounded with amazing people in your friendship group. And he’s 100%. Right? Even Gabe and I disagreed on a number of things on a number of posts.
Now, one of the best things that I’ve done though, is delete the posts after I’ve put them up, because I have the conversation. And I kind of get it out of my system for a little bit, everyone gets to chime in and get a little bit of stuff out as well. And then the post goes away, because I don’t want to be reminded of that post in 12 months time when Facebook decides to remind me about it.
Exactly. And I say that to my therapist community a lot. But she is one of the things that you need to do is declutter your Facebook, just like you declutter your house, just like you want to get your bedroom clean, and your living area and clean, keep your Facebook clean.
So you know, get rid of stuff. So if you want to give an opinion about you know, Dan Andrews or whatever, do that, but delete it, you know, delete it after 24 hours. In the end, I’ll put a post up today about the same issue that, you know, we have two opposing views, one on your page one on my page, if you want to see what Bill’s view is go to Bill’s page, if you want to see the polar opposite, go to my page, and in 24 hours a month will be deleted for that exact reason not because I don’t believe in what I said. But because it’s like it doesn’t it’s past, the moment has passed, it doesn’t need to stay begin the day with new energy, you know.
It’s actually exactly what it is. It’s a reset. And, I think that if I was able to get together with my friends, in a pub, at a cafe, wherever and have that conversation, I wouldn’t need to have it online. On Facebook, it wasn’t something that I used to do. On Facebook, I never posted about anything that was along those lines, it was always about helping stroke survivors, etc. and sharing something amazing that happened in my life.
So the fact that I get to do that on Facebook is a blessing, it’s definitely a blessing. Because we do it, we have the conversation. And then we just draw a line in the sand and go that was then scrub it from the record and move on. And hopefully the people who come back to my Facebook feel okay to be able to have that conversation with me, because I achieved to them the same thing that I achieved for me, which was we had a chat about it, we expressed ourselves. And then we moved on because we still friends, we still love each other, and we value each other.
Exactly. And you know, it really is challenging. Not that God knows I’ve edited so many posts so that either message doesn’t come across like that. But not to be condescending to someone else’s opinion, it’s really easy to do that, because you’re so convinced of your truth.
So therefore, because you’re so convinced of your truth, you’re just as convinced as somebody else, you know, but it really is just, it’s okay, that’s my truth. It doesn’t have to be someone else’s truth. It doesn’t make them an idiot, if they believe something different.
It’s just, that they believe something different. Okay. And just to be caught into people more than ever, just like you would if, you know, people, you know, I gave this example of where I’m at, made a comment on someone else’s page. And people came in who didn’t know me, and actually were abusive towards me.
So were quite abusive. And then the person that knew me liked their comments. To me, I saw that the same analogy as if I went to that person’s party at her house, say, and some people came up to me and abusing me, because they didn’t agree with me, just because the hostess agrees with that person or not mean in terms of whose side she’s on.
She shouldn’t be patting that person in the back and saying, it’s okay for you to abuse my guest. You know, like, there’s certain behavior that as the owners of our Facebook pages, and what goes on on our Facebook pages that irrespective of who we agree with, that we should have a standard of respect that is occurring on that page. So you don’t it’s not okay, you know, for abuse to happen on your page.
Absolutely not. It’s not okay for abuse to happen anywhere. And especially when we don’t know, more than ever, we don’t know what’s happening for the other person, because we’re not in front of them. We can’t judge from their expressions from, you know, the stress levels in their face, you know, with their body.
We can’t see any of them so we can’t judge more than ever, what they’re going through and if we’re going through a tough time It’s likely that they’re going through a tough time. Because, you know, we’re all stuck in this Limbo of COVID together. And there’s no way that somebody is kicking back on the other side of Facebook going, Yeah, I’m loving this, this is amazing.
No one’s doing that everyone’s having their own struggle. And we should be aware of that more than ever, that we don’t know what the other person is going through right now in this time. And what we might be able to do by having a conversation is help them vent.
And if we can help them vent, like they’ve helped me vent, then I think that’s a great thing to add to this online world. And then we can just reset, move on, and then go back to life, when it happens, go back to seeing people in person, and picking up where you left off, hug, that embrace the things that are important to us that we can’t have right now that we value the most, I don’t want to piss off my friends, and then they don’t want to hug me in the real world. No chance.
Using the opportunity to show kindness
But also, as well as that bill is apart from you know, and navigating through it, actually use this as an opportunity to become a better version, I feel that over the last month, you know, I might be wrong, I feel like I’ve changed already. I actually feel like I am a better version than I was three months ago, because I saw myself, you know, have those judgments.
I saw myself reacting a certain way. And now I’ve seen myself pull back and breathe. And that’s their opinion, I respect their opinion. they’re entitled to their opinion, and, you know, show compassion more than ever. So be able to give compassion and love to people you don’t agree with?
You know, I’ve seen myself do that. And I think that’s a better version, Helen. And we’re all got the opportunity now to do this. So we all have the opportunity now to be better versions of ourselves, because we can always be better versions.
Yeah. And we need to step up. I mean, if there’s ever been a time where we need to be better, it needs to be right now, because the world needs more better things than ever before right? And I don’t know if I’ve improved that dramatically in the last few months.
But definitely, it’s always my aim. My aim is always to be a better version of myself, so that I have a better experience. So that I can give more so that people around me have a better experience. And this is where I think I’m learning how to navigate this Facebook interaction, because I never really did anything other than like people’s posts and give them a thumbs up, up until now. And now it’s really this. It’s actually a conversation where before it was just, yeah, great photos, nice trip or whatever it was.
I would like to eat that too.
Whereas now it’s actually we actually tried to have the most serious conversation that we’ve ever tried to have before.
About everything, and this is the incredible time about 2020. Right? It’s not just about one thing, it’s not just about human rights. It’s not just about, you know, Black Lives Matter. It’s human rights. It’s you know, sexism, it’s children, it’s everything. So every kind of agenda is all playing out at the same time. It’s no one politics, who’s the best leader who’s the worst leader? You know, it’s all playing at the same time. And we all got different views.
Surprise, surprise, we’ve all got different views,
And you know, what did you really want to talk about today?
I think that’s what I wanted to talk about what we’ve spoken about. But I didn’t want to talk about the politics, because there’s no point in that. And I’m not interested in politics, per se. I’m not a political person, although it may appear, just through my posts that I have been, I’m not, I feel, my biggest issue is I feel like I’m being what’s the word?
Sometimes I feel like I’m being personally hard done by with decisions that appear to be inconsistent. And those inconsistency is really frustrating. And I just get frustrated, generally with inconsistencies in the way that people behave and react towards me, where it matters to me now.
And that’s because of the kind of work that I’ve done in the past and I’ve had a property maintenance business. And in our business, you can’t be inconsistent with the way that you apply yourself and get work done you need to be consistent so that your clients can feel like you’re delivering the right job, the right result every time so you can get paid every time so they can call you.
Also consistency is important to me because when I’m coaching people, I need to be consistently in a space where I am holding the space for them so that they can feel safe so that they can come alive, overcome their challenge, whatever it is.
So consistency is one of my values and when I appear to see it in public, by a public figure in the way that I apply a law or rule, and I’ve been doing, quote unquote, the right thing, then I feel like I’m personally getting singled out, for example, perhaps, that a certain group can behave this way and a certain group can’t behave this way.
And lately, I felt like I’ve been on the, I’m not allowed to behave this way group. And I feel like I’m getting punished for it. And, it happens in waves, right? So many days, I won’t post about it. But today, I posted about it, because it was kind of like God, here we go again, once again, I feel like I’m being singled out.
And why would that person single out all the people doing the right thing, and the people that are doing the wrong thing are getting a slap on the wrist. Now, your response makes sense to me. And the response that Steve had make sense and Gabe had make sense.
Just give a bit of context, anyone who’s listening, they don’t understand what we’re saying here. Because I think it is relevant. And it’s a perfect example of how two people can see things completely differently. And what you said there about your value also plays into that.
Where the disagreement began
So, what actually happened here in Melbourne, was that we have strict rules at the moment in terms of what we can and can’t do. And if we break those rules, we will get fined and we have been getting fined. Now, what’s actually happened recently is that somebody four or five families have been visiting each other against the rules, though, that one person who was infected with COVID, has now gone to 40 people.
So 40 people from one person has now been infected, because they’ve been visiting each other. Now, even before the story broke out, I knew that the government would not fine these people, because for me, it would make no sense to fine them. Because you’re interviewing the family members, the first thing you’ve got to say is, tell me who you spoke to, I promise I won’t fine those people because we need to know who you spoke to.
We’ve got to contain this ASAP. So that 40 doesn’t become 400, so 400 doesn’t become 4000. Because that’s the most important agenda right now in the state of Victoria, because we’re nearly there. And what people instead were focusing on was the fact Well, it’s not fair, you know, that, if I did this, I’d be fined, so why aren’t they getting fined?
But to me, it’s always about the bigger picture, always look at things from a bigger picture. Now, what you said makes sense, because what you said is your value is consistency. Because of your role. As in building maintenance, it’s important for you to make sure that you treat every client the same, you can’t decide to treat that client different to that client.
So consistency is top of mind in terms of value, whereas the way I see things is, yes, I’m a therapist. Now, I used to be a project manager. And I used to manage large projects. in managing large projects. My role as a project manager was always about the overall project.
Sometimes we had to make decisions that seemed unfair. And some people as a consequence, were fall out of that decision. But at the end of the day, what I had to consider was the deliverable of the overall project, what is my intention with this project, I will do what it takes to achieve that.
Okay, as a project manager, now, what you get there is you will always get people that feel had done by feel that you do your best to be fair, but at the end of the day, you have a project to deliver. And so the way that I saw the state of Victoria is our most important deliverable at this very moment is not about fining a family 1600 dollars.
Our most important deliverable is to get to where we need to go to open up the state, you know, we have to open up the stake safely. And we have to open it up in a way that we do not go into lockdown again, because we do not want that none of us want that. So I would rather I know what people want, you know, things to happen earlier rather than later I’m the reverse.
I want him to be sure. I want him to make sure that we do not go into lockdown again. I’m always one who wants to do things properly and not half assed, you know, and I was one of the ones who I believe that the mask thing came in too late. So every time I saw a press conference, I would actually put bring in masks, bring in masks bring in masks, I could see how that impacted numbers overseas.
We got masks to late. So a lot of mistakes were made. I absolutely agree with that. But I would prefer to properly stay down longer, stay down longer and get this done. So that we don’t go down again because Melbourne can’t go down again. Right. We want to be open and we want to stay open.
You can see interstate they’re not even wearing masks overseas. They are you know You want to be in a place in Melbourne, where we’re not wearing masks, we want to be in a place where eventually you know that the numbers are so low and so contained, not not eradicated because they won’t be, you know, we’re not used Zealand, but they will be suppressed.
And so the premier, you know, I’ve made it a point that every time it’s the Premier’s briefing, I go for a walk during that time, so I can hear it. So I’m not wasting time. So I actually give him what, like the full hour and a half, two hours that he’s been talking every single day.
So this question that you’ve put up, it frustrated me, because for the last four days, the the reporters have been asking this question, what the same question. He’s giving the same answer. And it’s the same question and they still report it. They’re reporting it. Why? Because they want people to say, that’s not fair. We’re doing the right thing. So it frustrates me because I feel like people are quick to go onto social media and complain, but have they listened to any briefing in full?
Yeah, I agree with you in that, as a project manager, when you put it that way. Because, as a property maintenance guy, I manage projects too. And that project, the most important thing is to deliver the project on time on budget and the quality that the client expects, they can get paid the same thing that I said before, right and get more work, etc.
People do it safely the rest of it. So you do you put in place, things that are gonna rub people up the wrong way, as long as you get the result in the end, and everything went well, and no one was harmed. And everything’s amazing. Everyone makes a buck, that’s really the most important thing.
The other side of that is that side where I put myself, personally, when I’m listening to the premier speak, I’m putting myself personally in that position of man, if that was me, you would’ve fined me. And that’s kind of what throws it out of whack. For me, that’s kind of like what gets me derailed.
And if I’m thinking about me, if it’s me that’s listening to him, rather than the project manager listening to him. Then I’m taking it personally, the project management in me is going yeah, I get it. And that’s why I also got your perspective on it. And that’s why I wanted to talk about it, because part of what you’re saying made proper sense to me.
And the other part was like, now this guy is still having a go at me, he’s still attacking me, it’s all about me. And I’ve done the right thing. And I’m not working. And I’m this and I’m that and I know people, and so on and so on. But there’s nothing worse than me, in my mind imagining us being in lockdown for another month or two.
And I think one of my issues with our premier particular is the way that he speaks to me reminds me of one of my teachers who I disliked way back whenever. So I kind of get that that comes into the picture. So I’m constantly aware of why he irritates me, amongst other things, and amongst the fact that I disagree with some of those things.
But then I also had an experience on the weekend, where I was at South Melbourne for work for a legitimate work purpose. So it was on a construction site where work was allowed. And I was the only one there. And there was a guy sitting outside. He was obviously unwell. And he was not wearing a mask, but he was sitting alone and he was on his own.
And he got arrested by six police officers. They did, it took six people came to surround this guy to take him away. And it’s kind of like, before all of this stuff, that guy was just the guy sitting on a couch on a bench before. Now he’s public enemy number one. And I feel that that’s unfair as well.
So you’re exactly right in what you said, My experiences and my background is informing my decision right now like yours are. And I know that I think I’ve become smarter in my older years in that knowing that I know that there’s not only one way for the world to exist and it’s definitely not the way that it exists in my head only.
And that’s why the most important thing for me is being able to get together and have the conversation and hear your point of view so I can find where I agree with you because I agree with you in so many places.
We all want the same thing
We all want the same thing. You know, my whole view is do it properly. So we don’t do this again. We don’t want to do this again. We don’t want to go into lockdown again. Let’s get this done properly. So no more lockdowns and you know what you said about the police, you know, probably not from the other point of view.
We’ve got one of our clients and we still see clients, we see them online, we see them via zoom like this. And one of our clients is a police officer. And she was one of the ladies who was on the, you know, at the, charlotte remembrance during one of the protests.
Now, she had to stand there for eight hours with full gear, you know, like, very in an uncomfortable way. And she was abused the whole day. And then she comes home. And then her husband’s complaining about the state of Victoria and, you know, the premier, and what he’s done.
And, you know, you can see, so my heart goes out to yes. Am I saying that all police officers do the right thing? Of course not. But that’s you find that in every profession, but now they’re under the microscope like never before, they can’t do anything without a camera. Imagine this Bill, everything you do, someone will be recording it, someone will say you’re wrong in doing what you’re doing. Someone will post it and put it out of context. I’m not saying they’re all out of context. what I’m saying is, you can bet that in some instances, it will be.
I feel for that police officer. And I also felt for that guy, you know, that got surrounded by six police officers, and he was just sitting there, he wasn’t doing anything. And it was just, this place that we’ve got to is, it seems like what you said, everything is polarizing. It’s no longer just the bloke sitting there. It’s a bloke doing the worst thing in the world.
I mean, he has moved to that very, very rapidly. And we haven’t had time to adjust to what does it mean to be sitting on a chair, in public without a mask on now, three minutes ago, it wasn’t a problem. So when I kind of go through all those things, like you’re right, it’s, all got to do with my view of the world, which is generally positive and, and generally about making things better.
And then it’s also got to do with how I’m feeling. And it’s also got to do with what I saw, and how I dealt with that. And then it’s also got to do with who responds to me when I say it, when I say something, if Helen had a go at me. And I felt threatened, I would definitely go, you know, bite back if the conversation was able to be framed in a way and I hopefully I’ve done this now by now I’ve framed my conversation so that people know, they can comment on my posts.
Yeah. And it’d be good if you actually share this onto your page as well.
Yeah, I will hundred percent
To actually bring it to, you know, conclusion, that it’s okay. It’s okay for us. And I love our conversation today. Because what it’s showing up is all the reasons as to why we think differently. You know, you said Dan reminded you of an ex teacher, but the thing is, because of all these things happening at the subconscious level, we’re not aware of them.
We know we have this belief, and this is a truth. But we don’t know why. You know, but you stood back and gone why am I so triggered? Oh, he reminds me of my teacher hated my teacher. You know, I’m all about consistency, the building trade, so you’re you’re actually all your experience and everything that you know, is your truth, forms an opinion, that is very different, in my opinion, because my experience is completely different.
Yeah. And I’m curious kind of guy. That’s why I go, I never speak to him about this. I don’t want to talk about it on Facebook. I want to speak to her because I’m curious. How did she get to that point? How did she come to that version of events? Can collusion response reaction?
And how come I’m not there? And am I okay, with not being there? Am I okay with where I am? Do I want to meet in the middle somewhere? Like what do I want to do about that now that I know. And it helps to inform how I’m going to then behave in the future.
And I just reminded myself that what I think I’m going to do from now on is frame my posts, so that I can say I’m, this is my feeling right now. I’m inviting a conversation and at the end of this in 24 hours, it’s going to be deleted, I want to have a conversation. I don’t want to attack you for your beliefs, please respond. That’s going to make it much much better for me because then I won’t feel like people think that I’m having a go because I don’t want that I don’t want people to feel like I’m having a go.
And guess to me also it’s about, well what truth serves me. So what truth actually serves me to feel good and to feel safe. And I think that’s important too because a lot of people are buying into there’s a lot of fear going on around now in terms of different fear paradigms.
Fear of uncertainty
And so why buy into that fear because to me, that’s the crux of my work in terms of anxiety. Okay, that’s the crux of it is imagining something going wrong. So why buy into this fudgy story, you know, it hasn’t happened yet. Okay, it might happen. But it hasn’t happened yet. And lots of things might happen. But do we need to buy into that as our present moment reality, we don’t.
I think that this has been a really, really fruitful discussion, because different people have had two different opinions on the way that 2020 has come out. But really, both of our intentions are good. Yes. Okay. I want what’s best for the world, you want what’s best for the world? We just have different opinions. And most of the time that is the situation for the human rights most of time, not all the time. But most the time, people mean, well.
Yes, absolutely. I think that’s where it comes from more than anything is, there is an I dare say, like, even the protesters, they mean, well, underneath. They’re turning up and protesting in a lockdown, which I disagree with. I think that what they’re doing is they’re intending for something good to come from that whatever, in their worldview is good.
And, and I appreciate them for that. I don’t appreciate them being out in protest during a lockdown. I understand why they’re doing it. But I wouldn’t be there. I’m not going there. I won’t be supporting their their cause in that way. Because it’s the wrong thing to do during a lockdown.
So it’s been an amazing conversation I really thank you for firstly, chatting to me, but I know you chat to people all the time, and you chat to me all the time. So it’s not what I’m thanking you for, I’m thanking you for really taking a leadership position and going, you know what, let’s put it out there. And let’s help other people understand and to navigate this complex conversation that we’re all having behind the keyboard.
I needed it, because I needed to understand it. So I really appreciate that you’ve done that. And I think it’s going to make a massive difference to the people in the hypnotherapy community and in the stroke community, because I’m going to post it to my stroke podcast as well. And I think we’ve made a small difference for the good, right now. I think we really have and that’s gonna pay dividends for them.
Absolutely. And I want to thank you for reaching out respectfully, and in love, really, which is what you did. And you’re the one who reached out to me. So I really thank you for that. All I did was respond. So you’re welcome. Thank you. Okay, so thanks, everybody.
And just to finalize that, at the end of the day, let’s just get away from right and wrong. Let’s just move away from it. It’s your truth. But you don’t have to prove someone else wrong so that your truth can be right. And we can still be respectful to each other. We can still you can see how this one event that played out in Melbourne, just the last few days one little event and get there’s so many events happening in the world right now.
And we both saw it so different because of who we are as people, not because one of us is smarter and one of us is, you know, not as smart. But because we just have different life experiences. And we see it different because we’re different people. So that’s all it is. Awesome. Thank you Bill for saying yes to these. Thank you so much.
Thanks, Helen. Thanks for listening to this episode. If you like this or any other of the recovery after stroke podcast episodes, hit the like button if you’re watching on social media. Give us a thumbs up if you’re watching on the YouTube channel and give the recovery after stroke podcast a five star review on your favorite podcast app. Doing that we’ll make the podcast more visible to other stroke survivors that are doing a tough right now and it could help them feel inspired and feel better about the road ahead. Thanks for tuning in.
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